What is Submission? II

Since this entry seems to pop up from time to time, with other entries on D/s, submission, I have a word of caution here.

A few years ago I was involved with a man in Montreal, who called himself Mackenzie Cross, but his real name was Jerry Go-lick.  He ‘promised’ enhancement, and because I was stupid and naive, I fell for his gab.  He was a silver tongued devil, but in the end, he was just a liar. A calculated liar.

Where I have put forth praise of submission, etc….I want to backtrack.  I was involved (really on the outskirts mostly) in bdsm because I thought it might have some answers.  It didn’t.

My experience was this:  Most of the so-called ‘doms’ I met, online and in person…were wanky, insecure, massively unbalanced and stupid men.  Some obviously, because of physical deficiences….fat, unattractive,  bad personalities, or outright psychosis, were not able to attract women in the ‘normal’ ways.  They sat behind computers because then they could be anything to anyone.  Those I met in person?  They had their own bag of issues:  many of these men are just players and fit the catagory above.  Sociopaths LOVE computers.

As for the women? These ‘submissives’?  Many of them were desperate, lard-assed women who just wanted a man to pay attention to them, to micro-manage them so they didn’t have to bother with their lives….sounds so ‘freeing’. Yeah, I really want a man to give me permission to go to the loo or when to sit down.

And surprisingly, most of these women are married, as was I.  What disturbs me most is the constant disloyalty of these women towards their husbands:  In many cases, every morsel of food they put in their mouths comes from the labor of their husbands.  But they have no problem talking about them on their blogs like they are dogs. This disloyalty is destructive to marriage and  says much more about themselves than their husbands.

My marriage survived this jackass in Montreal.  I survived this experience.  But in no way was it an ’empowering’ or ‘enhancing’ experience.  It was a stupid, demeaning hell.

Only by realizing that I didn’t need the so-called ‘help’ of a man who was nothing but a sham and a liar….that empowerment was something I already had spades of, ….did I come out of that stupid and insulting period.

Understanding yourself, what you self-worth really is, is the answer to all the nastiness of the world.  Once you understand this, you don’t need these terribly unequal relationships.

I would advise those who are truly seeking answers, or are confused about this crap, to read the website of EOPC:


Lady Nyo, aka Jane

It surprised me when Jane invited me to contribute t

I am posting this on the blog surface, because it is a very well thought out opinion.  It gives a LOT to think about, and perhaps others, especially the thinking Goreans, will respond.

Regardless, it is very welcome on my blog, because after all…it’s all about investigation into differently held patterns of behavior.

And philosophies….

Lady Nyo


My Dear Jane-Elisabeth

The Natural Order is a very seductive but ultimately false concept, on a par with Creationism and Mutually Assured Destruction.

Would you consider a lioness in full hunt to be submissive? The full maned magnificent lion sleeping in the sun, lazy and idle, only rousing during the season to mate purfuntorily with its harem, as truly attractive in its sexual dominance?

I agree that men are in many cases confused but that is a consequence of social change in the Western World. I think that if you were offered the choice of living truly as a slave, ill educated, without choice and no horizon beyond the hearth with the attention of a man when he so chose you might think twice.

I have written to you before on Dominance and submission and its often straying into pain and pleasure.

My views remain unchanged. I too have read the fantasy works of Norman and others, they were a product of their time, they have no ‘philosophy’ only the fantasy wish fulfillment of the author. They have no deeper message other than the writer exploring their own sensual feelings and creating a self satisfying world.

I have written works of non concensual erotic slavery and utter dominance. They pleased me to write and many to read from their comments in response. But I do not espouse them as philosophical works nor do I seek followers.

Yes, women come to me as you well know, you are aware of what transpires, the depths of sensuality and the breaking down of their psychological barriers and boundaries through overwhelming pleasure and, if appropriate, pain. The depths of emotional and sexual turmoil.

It scares you.

There is some safety in the stereotype, the Master and slave of common thought. There are ‘limits’ understood ‘edges’. Gorean and other ‘styles’ are just that. Fashion statements for followers not leaders.

You will know what I mean when I remind you that a true leader will tire of the inanity of what is created by their followers?

Norman like Hubbard would laugh to see what their followers have done with their fantasies.  Azimov once wrote a short story about Shakespeare and had him say, as he shook his head coming out from a contemporary university lecture on his works. ‘Methinks they could wring a flood from a damp breechclout’.

I have little or no patience with elaborate social practices and belief structures built upon flimsy fantasy.

What you describe as a reaction to a quietly confident and psychologically strong man is little more than the mating instinct. If you want natural order that is where you should turn. Read Desmond Morriss and his classic The Naked Ape and other works. It is in fact ALL about sex.

What happens beyond is an overlay of justification.

I have worked with women and stripped them down to their cores. After exposing layer after layer through fantasy, orgasm and pain to get to that basic issue. It is about opening, spreading, accepting and welcoming the entry. Everything else just gets in the way.

For myself, what have I learned?

That I take huge pleasure from control. The control of a partner in their extremis. Orgasmic release is merely a pleasant part of the pleasure for me. To lead a partner, not by force but by tenderness and firm direction to their furthest boundary and show them what more there is to feel beyond. But it is personal, self knowledge not a cathechism to read and follow, a book of instructions or a pattern of learned behaviour or behaviour to ‘fit in’. I wish to be my own man and I am certain you want to be your own woman.

You may reject this as too controversial, too dismissive of others dearly held and very real beliefs. But I can only speak as I find.

My respect and warm regards




UPDATE:  Friend Phil makes some assumptions, though that era was rather confusing to myself and my friends, and Phil certainly was a friend.

No, Phil, It did not scare me….it excited me in ways I hadn’t considered.  But there was real danger.

And the danger is this:  We can place …or attempt to place ourselves….our precious selves…into hands that are mean, niggardly, potentially destructive, and in the end….evil.  However, this time was one of great learning….that I didn’t need false gurus to be telling me about my life:  after all these years I was experiencing exactly what was necessary to grow.

I had given up something of myself for a very short time to an unworthy fellow who turned out to be nothing but a silly cad.  Certainly not worth my trust and respect for what he revealed himself to be in the end: a liar.

But ultimately?  We learn…and when we again trust ourselves…we can quickly scan those false gurus and walk on by.

Lady Nyo

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8 Responses to “What is Submission? II”

  1. vajrakrishna Says:

    The Story Isaac Asimov wrote can be found here:

    As I often tell Gorean Lifestyers and Rpers, John Norman had no real intent for this kind of future for his books, so there is the need to make it adaptable so that the essence is preserved. The nature of submission, however, is what made Dom/Subs take on Gor as a lifestyle, because it was already innate in them.

    I have met several submissive men and women who are not submissive for sexual gratification, but rather find joy in relinquishing control. It is a life of servitude.

    Submission does not necessarily have to do anything with sex at all:


  2. ladynyo Says:

    Thank you so much for reading and commenting. I will look at the Asimov website
    and also your website this weekend.

    I have trouble taking this fantasy world of Gor seriously because the so-called Goreans I have met on Earth are rather…..unpleasing.


    However, on this issue of submission…I think finding one spot where you can whole-heartedly submit with no qualms is very good for the general soul. A life of servitude? I don’t know about that.

    Thank you, again.

    Lady Nyo


  3. vajrakrishna Says:

    Well, there are the 6 main forms of Yoga, one being Bakhti (devotional), another being Jnana (Insight and Silent Understanding), and yet another being Karma yoga which is essentially to cleanse the soul through service to mankind. Mother Teresa is a good example.

    Tantra also uses the principle of the Guru/Disciple (Master/Slave) relationship to it’s utmost conclusion – there is a level of intimacy possible in that relationship that is impossible to access through any other form. Because of the level of surrender involved. In essence, it is a method of finding the Guru (or teacher) within you. But that isn’t as easy as someone saying, “I am my own teacher.” Because they must first realise that they learn from everyone that they teach themselves as much as they are taught by every single person they would meet, be it a fool or a wise man. The wisdom behind this yoga is beautifully layered and rich in depth.

    In the western world, the dom/sub culture, I feel, is a subconscious (or superconscious) understanding of this reality.

    The issue however, as it is with anything in life, is that people are mostly only willing to go so far. There is the terrifying and perpetual fear of cleansing yourself completely. Of surrendering completely. I cannot think of anything that is as frightening or would take as much courage.

    For this reason, I would guess, that we don’t meet many authentic Gorean lifestylers or dom/subs… because they play at it much more than they actually take it to it’s ultimate conclusion. It is far too scary to surrender like that. 🙂


  4. ladynyo Says:

    I would agree….in part because what you are surrendering to is of the greatest importance. There are….in my sad experience….a lot of wankers out there: men (and women…) who are so riddled with their own pathologies that they do not make any real commitment to hold what amounts to be ‘your soul’ in their hands.

    They are players….They will move the goalposts only from their own whims, not what is needed by both the dom/sub at the moment.

    The so-called Goreans I have met are sad examples, but I don’t think this Gorean stuff is looking for such an experience. Perhaps they are poor bdsmers hiding behind a philosophy they think will give some intellectual or cultural structure?

    Surrendering should be left to surrendering to your abilities…and immersing yourself completely into them.

    As to surrendering completely? There is a human yearning to do so, I believe….yes, scary, yes, needing much courage….but the person on the other side of this equation is equally important.

    Life is beautifully layered and rich in depth. You just have to continue breathing and make good choices.


  5. vajrakrishna Says:

    There is a lovely story I once came across that gave me some insight into this dilemma:

    This is a story of Milarepa the famous Tibetan sage and founder of Lamaism. The story goes that Milarepa had a teacher before he met his Guru Marpa. He accepted the tutelage of Milarepa but his other disciples were jealous of Milarepa for his magnetic personality. So they went to the Guru and said, Master, ask for total obedience from this man as he thinks he is bigger than even you. Test him.

    So the story goes that the Master told Milarepa to jump off the mountain and before the Guru could finish the sentence Milarepa jumped. Sure that he was dead the disciples went down and searched for his body, but they found Milarepa under a tree happy as a clam. They could not understand how this happened, and asked him; he just said;

    I did not do anything it must have been the Master that saved me. I do not know what happened.
    The master was equally flabbergasted and had no idea what happened.

    The jealous disciples pushed on and asked for another test. The next test was to have Milarepa go into a burning building and stay there until the whole building is burnt to crisp. Milarepa complied without any hesitation and as the building turned into ashes the disciples found him under a pile of ash, alive and unharmed.

    He still could not account for the miracle. He just smiled and went on. Later the disciples pushed for a third test. This was near a deep, mountain lake in Tibet. The Guru told Milarepa to walk onto the lake and fetch the boat that was anchored there away from the shores.

    He started to walk towards the boat, and to the amazement of all, he walked on the water. The master was hysterical. He, for all his knowledge, had no idea how Milarepa could do all these tricks.

    The master swallowed his pride and asked him while the two were sitting alone in the boat Milarepa fetched.

    Tell me Milarepa how could you walk on the lake?

    Milarepa said; Master I just did it without thinking of it or the danger. I kept saying your name and had total faith that I will be protected somehow.

    The Master thought to himself if this is the trick I can do this too. While repeating his own name, he stepped out of the boat to head to the shore.

    He drowned.


    What I gathered from the subtext of this story is that the devotion, the submission of the student in and of itself is the pure path that takes him or her to the end they seek. That which they submit to often doesn’t seem to matter, what seems to matter more is the intention the student has for making that act of submission.


  6. ladynyo Says:

    I loved that story!

    and….in the ending….I recognized something of myself. Having only come across false Gurus, I turned from that path of ‘seeking’…

    …and found wholesomeness in my own being. Slowly, because I couldn’t believe it. There were lots of ‘answers’ outside, but better ones inside.

    Submission to something inside. Not outside.


  7. vajrakrishna Says:

    And it gets to a point where the difference between “inside” and “outside” dissapears… where one begins to see the non-duality of it. A wonderful explanation of non-duality here:

    I’d like to add an excerpt from the book I’m writing now which seems fitting for where this discussion has arrived:


  8. On Surrender, Guru, Nonduality and Independence. « The Revolution is Within Says:

    […] Night of the Soul.” Was inspired to post this as a response to a discussion on submission here. Especially to the mention of trusting in something inside you, rather than outside of you, I felt […]


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