A Worthy Post from “Z” on Submission, ‘Natural Order’ and D/S issues.

I received this today from a reader “Z” who chimes in every so often.  I have known this person for a while, and I find him to be sensible and balanced…and cautious with these myriad issues of dominance and submission, bdsm, etc.

Over the course of time, and it’s not that we haven’t disagreed on things, we have discussed many issues and have come to a place where we see things as they are:  “Z” is the ultimate realist (though also a romantic) and I have respect for his experience.  He has guided me on some important issues, and especially around a particular ‘thorny’ individual.  He was able to see what this fellow really was when I was resistant to the truth.  So when “Z” sends a comment, I find a lot of pre-chewed sense….

I am glad to have his input, and in spite of some issues,  we remain friends.  That’s a bit of the measure of mature adults.

Lady Nyo


Just a few words from me.
You are indeed fortunate that you have the opportunity to settle into a natural balance and rhythm with your partner. I do not confuse that balance with the ‘natural Order’ espoused by some cultist groups.

(Well, “Z”, it wasn’t without a struggle.  My Husband and I had to see up close and personal some prime examples.   This “Natural Order” thing I confess to not having  studied in the light of more scientific thought: I took the thoughts  of  John Norman, who wrote the “Gor” stories to be the philosophical basis of his “Natural Order”.  I’m not sure now that he was only  trying to form an apologia for his and his wife’s bdsm practice with the Gor series.  Too outlandish to really consider to base the practice of a marriage.

I like Norman better in his “The Cognitivity Paradox” (An Inquiry Concerning the Claims of Philosophy), under his REAL name, John Lange, Princeton University Press, 1970.  That is a statement that you can get your teeth around, IF you really care to do so.  That short book is also not generally known or read by the so called lifestyle Goreans I have met.  They are generally not interested in such claims of philosophy.

And you can’t disabuse me of the cultist behavior and intention.

You have achieved a level of satisfaction that is reflecting the biological and psychological functions of male and female. The female nurturing and bringing comfort to a true partnership.

(But not without struggle.  I was filled with the ideas that I was somehow cheating myself in doing so.  I was very short sighted.)

However, our society no longer reflects that ancient arrangement. Our intellectual achievements and aspirations take us all in a different direction.
Setting aside the spectrum of human sexuality and behaviour most women in the Western world have taken on a homogenity of function with men.
Both sexes find themselves out of the balance you describe so eloquently.

(Thank you, Z, and this is in no way is an argument for “Natural Order”.  At least as the readers and practitioners of Gorean ‘philosophy’ see it.  What I think is that there are a lot of weird pathologies in the followers of things Gor. Visit the Gorean Boards for some of that.  Of course, there are ‘normal’ people there, too…but if they are so normal, why are they there?

I have seen some of this first hand.  These people are not a good basis to further a philosophy.  They are mired in their own confusions and give this over to the ‘practice’ of something that is a fairy tale in any case…well, fiction, and not very well written fiction at that.  Norman should have stuck to his Princeton days philosophy.

However, Norman was writing the Gor series pre internet, and some of the details and research is marvelous.  He did have a couple of degrees in study that shows a deep and abiding understanding of a lot of cultures, especially in the Middle Eastern settings.  Some of the traditions, like bread/salt/breaking the water bags, and their social/cultural consequences are spot on.  Some of the customs he wrote about were not well known in the ’60’s by the majority of his readers.   It’s unfortunate that people embrace some of the other stuff instead of taking Norman for being a pioneer in some interesting cultural issues brought forth in fiction. )

Hence the searching for something to satisfy those un met psychic and biologic urges.

In some cases that searching leads to the excesses you have described in other posts.

You know that I dislike stereotypical labels. D/s and BDSM can be like uniforms constraining one into a set of alternate social ‘norms’.
Sex is the closest and most intimate of partnerships. The libido perhaps the strongest biologic driver we have. It is no surprise that this arena is where our most basic needs are often expressed.

To be ’submissive’ is quite natural. However, it does not have to entail bindings and whips, nor utter slavery to another.
It is naturally expressed in the opening to a lover and receiving what they g

(Exactly…and this is where ‘submission’ is distorted by Gorean/D/S/bdsm adherents.  We went through hell trying to conform to these ideas, and there were many of them, and in the end…..it was a very simple  issue.  It didn’t have the ‘drama’ of all this above.  It became a simple bond between a normal man…and a normal woman.  Those ‘awakenings’ to a very interesting issue were fulfilled without the trappings ….just a peaceful resolve in a long term marriage…which at first seemed wanting of something…until we saw what was the plight of others.  And it didn’t hold expressed fear or trepidation, a pandering to an overwhelming and unhealthy ego, a dominance that was ‘on’ because it was fearful of being ‘off’.  (Of course, the issues of sadism here compounds the issue)

It was a bond of respect and admiration for the creativity and strength of what was opposite without jarring behavior.)

I guess that where the balance you have now found is missing from their role, the reaction is to seek a more intense expression of submission. It may be this is where the problems of abuse and violation can arise.

(I think you very right, Z.  That intensity is on both sides:  it’s the submissive trying to ‘prove’ that she really is a ‘submissive’  (and I have been accused of ‘denying my submission’..or submissive state) to gain the approval of this Dom…. to placate his insecurities and anger.  So the submissive opens herself to more and more …ah….abusive behavior…or degrading behavior, or humiliating behavior… if the Dom so pleases….and the Dom takes it as his ‘due’.  Because he’s the Dom.

Or because he’s a real  sadist.  I have found that not all Doms are made of the same cloth.  In fact….real Doms are not tied up in these behaviors above…they know play from real.  I didn’t.

LOL!….I am glad that we  found other ways to address this issue of
Domination and Submission in our marriage. Perhaps where there is a lot of hurt and history, couples apply the whip and try to get ‘deeper’ into this issue of  D/s, but I think it does come down to a ‘natural order’…a balance of natures and attendant tasks…

Just not what some make of it.

Just a few musings

My regards


And thank you, Z.  Always informative and a pleasure.

Lady Nyo…who would like at some point to address this knotty issue of ‘service’. ( but really not so knotty)

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