Posts Tagged ‘Gorean’

Athene responds with an interesting comment to “Role of Slavery”

December 18, 2008
  1. I’m bringing Athene’s comment to the front of the blog because she has some very interesting and important comments to make on this (and other) issue.  There’s a lot in her comment to ponder, and that is the whole purpose of this blog…to educate, inform and shake things up.

Thank you, Athene, for your permission to use your comment and sorry that this damn is so wanky in formatting! I can’t control this stuff.

Lady Nyo

  1. Athene Says:
    Fair warning, this may be a bit of a rant.

    I must say, when I read this article, the one word that kept repeating itself in my mind was: heteronormative. Concepts of femininity, of women’s roles and men’s roles – they are only social constructs.

    Science, for one example, is only a traditionally male role because society has deemed it that way – not because males are better able to think critically.

    “Feminism is not about being the same, but about being able to express whom one is without being judged.”


    Feminism is, quite simply, the belief that women have the legal right to political, social, and economic equality.

    Anyone, regardless of race, religion, sex, sexual orientation, longs to be able to express themselves without being judged. This isn’t just a feminist ideal.

    “The two complementary strengths between male and female are given free scope to shine – the one a high intensity, piercing kind of approach and the other the strength of endurance and patience, rich in verbal communication and intuition.”

    These “strengths” are not biologically based; they are the traditional social constructs that most everyone has bought into. Suggesting that women have more endurance and patience and intuition than men is, IMO, downright silly. Suggesting that men are high intensity with a piercing kind of approach is also silly.

    IMO, it’s a self fulfilling prophecy. When you grow up, you are inundated with these ideas of gender roles, and being of the young impressionable mind, you believe you need to fit into these gender roles. If women cultivate their patience, it’s not because biologically they are hard-wired to have more patience than their male counterparts, it’s because they were led to believe this is how they should be, and adjusted their behavior appropriately.

    “The more that women are placed in a position in society where they are bearing the burdens of traditional male roles and still maintaining the traditional duties of the primary nurturer, the more need there is for a place they can go where they are relieved of some of these burdens.”

    Bearing the burdens of traditional male roles? Who says they are burdens? And why do they need to be relieved?

    Perhaps these so called burdens wouldn’t be burdens if society got out of the heteronormative state it’s stuck in, and started demanding that males begin to be nurturers and take on equal responsibility as females. There are plenty of single fathers out there in this world who do a fine job of raising their children. If they were, as this author suggests, biologically incapable or at a biological disadvantage of doing so, their children would most likely be taken away from them and given to the more biologically inclined females.

    “…parameters that define their existence, and as well, to emphasize the natural proclivities of one gender over another…”

    IMO, this writer seems to have totally bought into the concept of heternormativity (which is societal based, not biologically based), and is using it as justification of dominant/submissive and/or Master/slave play and/or relationships across the board.

    If this writer personally sees justification of Dom/sub “roles” due to an adoption of heteronormative thinking, then that’s fine. But it seems to me that this writer is trying to justify this relationship for other people using the same “logic” which I personally find to be faulty.

    I would willingly embrace heteronormative society as much as I would willingly embrace the variola virus.

    Now, while we’re on the subject of domination and submission…

    IMO, a submissive isn’t really a submissive. A submissive usually has use of safe words and is able to, with a single word, halt an activity if s/he takes issue with it. If you are a submissive and you are allowed to use a safe word, in reality, taking a step away from the immediate play acting scene, you are in control of everything. You say “yellow” and the dominant has to slow down and make sure everything’s okay. You say “red” and the dominant has to stop everything at once. So, even though the dominant may have some control over the steering wheel and gas, the submissive has full control of all the brakes, and can brake anytime, for any reason.

    According to some, slavery is more of a true state of submission to another than just being a submissive. Most BDSM slaves (as opposed to submissives) have no luxuries of safe words, and they must endure whatever is put to them. However, the neglect of safe words is usually considered a very dangerous thing that deviates from the usual rules of SSC (safe, sane, consensual) in the BDSM community. People I’ve talked to point out exactly what I mentioned in the above paragraph – if there is a safe word, there is no “true” submissiveness to another because there is an easy out – hence, diving another level deeper into slavery – “true” submission.

    But this leads to even more points to ponder on.

    If an important hallmark of BDSM play is to be SSC, then “true” submission (slavery) isn’t [safe or mainstream] BDSM, or is it?

    If BDSM SSC rules are obeyed, and submissives are allowed to use safe words, are they still in a submissive role?

    Is there a difference between a submissive and slave? In my experience, it depends who you ask. And, do you care? If your play is restricted between you and your partner, do you care how else everyone else defines slave and submissive?


Something on John Norman, the author of the Gor books…

December 14, 2008

I cribbed this from Wikipedia because most people are not familiar with John Norman’s background and this gives a little about his philosophical basis. I have recognized Nietzche’s ‘natural order’ philosophy, but this is just a partial basis to understanding Norman.

Lady Nyo

Norman is a follower of Edgar Rice Burroughs, and his influential Gor series bears parallels to Burroughs’ John Carter (character)|John Carter of Mars. His novels include lengthy philosophical and sociology|sociological dissertations criticizing the malaise of modern society (everything from common dishonesty to nuclear warfare|nuclear holocaust). A wide variety of societies, cultures, moral concepts, and technologies are described in depth in his novels; however it is always within the context of the male adventure genre, and, as such, families, children, and other mundane aspects of real life are generally absent and those roles are left undiscussed.

His fiction places emphasis on living in accordance with a Friedrich Nietzsche|Nietzsche-esque natural order, sponsoring a hierarchy of talent, especially strength. Based on this assumed hierarchy, combined with a particular usage of evolutionary psychology to analyze gender role|gender differences, he contends that woman is the submissive natural helper, and figurative slave, of man. His work often takes this observation literally: heroes enslave heroines who, upon being enslaved, revel in the discovery of their natural place. Norman and Goreans have been criticized for this tenet of what they consider honoring nature. The extent to which Norman intended this philosophy to be taken literally, rather than as a vehicle of sexual fantasy, is debatable. Bondage in the novels and in his Imaginative Sex guide is overtly and completely sexual in nature and while the philosophy presented is unquestionably that of male dominance, the male characters are themselves often temporarily and elaborately enslaved by powerful females.

It should be noted that Norman’s interpretations of evolutionary psychology represent one set of viewpoints among many, few of which define men’s and women’s roles as John Norman does. Rather, evolutionary psychology provides theories and evidence that may be interpreted and used in many ways, like almost all science.

What is Submission? II

December 14, 2008

Since this entry seems to pop up from time to time, with other entries on D/s, submission, I have a word of caution here.

A few years ago I was involved with a man in Montreal, who called himself Mackenzie Cross, but his real name was Jerry Go-lick.  He ‘promised’ enhancement, and because I was stupid and naive, I fell for his gab.  He was a silver tongued devil, but in the end, he was just a liar. A calculated liar.

Where I have put forth praise of submission, etc….I want to backtrack.  I was involved (really on the outskirts mostly) in bdsm because I thought it might have some answers.  It didn’t.

My experience was this:  Most of the so-called ‘doms’ I met, online and in person…were wanky, insecure, massively unbalanced and stupid men.  Some obviously, because of physical deficiences….fat, unattractive,  bad personalities, or outright psychosis, were not able to attract women in the ‘normal’ ways.  They sat behind computers because then they could be anything to anyone.  Those I met in person?  They had their own bag of issues:  many of these men are just players and fit the catagory above.  Sociopaths LOVE computers.

As for the women? These ‘submissives’?  Many of them were desperate, lard-assed women who just wanted a man to pay attention to them, to micro-manage them so they didn’t have to bother with their lives….sounds so ‘freeing’. Yeah, I really want a man to give me permission to go to the loo or when to sit down.

And surprisingly, most of these women are married, as was I.  What disturbs me most is the constant disloyalty of these women towards their husbands:  In many cases, every morsel of food they put in their mouths comes from the labor of their husbands.  But they have no problem talking about them on their blogs like they are dogs. This disloyalty is destructive to marriage and  says much more about themselves than their husbands.

My marriage survived this jackass in Montreal.  I survived this experience.  But in no way was it an ’empowering’ or ‘enhancing’ experience.  It was a stupid, demeaning hell.

Only by realizing that I didn’t need the so-called ‘help’ of a man who was nothing but a sham and a liar….that empowerment was something I already had spades of, ….did I come out of that stupid and insulting period.

Understanding yourself, what you self-worth really is, is the answer to all the nastiness of the world.  Once you understand this, you don’t need these terribly unequal relationships.

I would advise those who are truly seeking answers, or are confused about this crap, to read the website of EOPC:

Lady Nyo, aka Jane

It surprised me when Jane invited me to contribute t

I am posting this on the blog surface, because it is a very well thought out opinion.  It gives a LOT to think about, and perhaps others, especially the thinking Goreans, will respond.

Regardless, it is very welcome on my blog, because after all…it’s all about investigation into differently held patterns of behavior.

And philosophies….

Lady Nyo


My Dear Jane-Elisabeth

The Natural Order is a very seductive but ultimately false concept, on a par with Creationism and Mutually Assured Destruction.

Would you consider a lioness in full hunt to be submissive? The full maned magnificent lion sleeping in the sun, lazy and idle, only rousing during the season to mate purfuntorily with its harem, as truly attractive in its sexual dominance?

I agree that men are in many cases confused but that is a consequence of social change in the Western World. I think that if you were offered the choice of living truly as a slave, ill educated, without choice and no horizon beyond the hearth with the attention of a man when he so chose you might think twice.

I have written to you before on Dominance and submission and its often straying into pain and pleasure.

My views remain unchanged. I too have read the fantasy works of Norman and others, they were a product of their time, they have no ‘philosophy’ only the fantasy wish fulfillment of the author. They have no deeper message other than the writer exploring their own sensual feelings and creating a self satisfying world.

I have written works of non concensual erotic slavery and utter dominance. They pleased me to write and many to read from their comments in response. But I do not espouse them as philosophical works nor do I seek followers.

Yes, women come to me as you well know, you are aware of what transpires, the depths of sensuality and the breaking down of their psychological barriers and boundaries through overwhelming pleasure and, if appropriate, pain. The depths of emotional and sexual turmoil.

It scares you.

There is some safety in the stereotype, the Master and slave of common thought. There are ‘limits’ understood ‘edges’. Gorean and other ‘styles’ are just that. Fashion statements for followers not leaders.

You will know what I mean when I remind you that a true leader will tire of the inanity of what is created by their followers?

Norman like Hubbard would laugh to see what their followers have done with their fantasies.  Azimov once wrote a short story about Shakespeare and had him say, as he shook his head coming out from a contemporary university lecture on his works. ‘Methinks they could wring a flood from a damp breechclout’.

I have little or no patience with elaborate social practices and belief structures built upon flimsy fantasy.

What you describe as a reaction to a quietly confident and psychologically strong man is little more than the mating instinct. If you want natural order that is where you should turn. Read Desmond Morriss and his classic The Naked Ape and other works. It is in fact ALL about sex.

What happens beyond is an overlay of justification.

I have worked with women and stripped them down to their cores. After exposing layer after layer through fantasy, orgasm and pain to get to that basic issue. It is about opening, spreading, accepting and welcoming the entry. Everything else just gets in the way.

For myself, what have I learned?

That I take huge pleasure from control. The control of a partner in their extremis. Orgasmic release is merely a pleasant part of the pleasure for me. To lead a partner, not by force but by tenderness and firm direction to their furthest boundary and show them what more there is to feel beyond. But it is personal, self knowledge not a cathechism to read and follow, a book of instructions or a pattern of learned behaviour or behaviour to ‘fit in’. I wish to be my own man and I am certain you want to be your own woman.

You may reject this as too controversial, too dismissive of others dearly held and very real beliefs. But I can only speak as I find.

My respect and warm regards




UPDATE:  Friend Phil makes some assumptions, though that era was rather confusing to myself and my friends, and Phil certainly was a friend.

No, Phil, It did not scare me….it excited me in ways I hadn’t considered.  But there was real danger.

And the danger is this:  We can place …or attempt to place ourselves….our precious selves…into hands that are mean, niggardly, potentially destructive, and in the end….evil.  However, this time was one of great learning….that I didn’t need false gurus to be telling me about my life:  after all these years I was experiencing exactly what was necessary to grow.

I had given up something of myself for a very short time to an unworthy fellow who turned out to be nothing but a silly cad.  Certainly not worth my trust and respect for what he revealed himself to be in the end: a liar.

But ultimately?  We learn…and when we again trust ourselves…we can quickly scan those false gurus and walk on by.

Lady Nyo

What is Submission?

December 13, 2008

We had some discussion a while back about submission, but it wasn’t completed. Because of further private discussion I am raising it again, thought it will make some groan. Tant pis.

Friends (and some enemies) know that I have struggled to come to a place with this issue. A year ago I started some research/discovery, and was caught up in so many harrowing issues. I either fought it/denied it/tried to manipulate it/disown it…sometimes all at the same time. I just couldn’t get a handle on it.

Part of the problem I believe was I came to the ‘subject’ late in life. I’m no spring chicken. I also have had to be very dominant in my life before. Some know that because of some particular work I carried a gun. That will impact your ideas about yourself, even if you have no idea of submission. Coming upon this issue of submission, I really struggled…still do. My husband was of no help at all. He was hoping any D/s issue would fly by and I would come to my senses. Well, I didn’t…..and once that became obvious to him, he started to get interested…in part of being a dominant. But there was a lag of almost two years and I went through a lot. I admit I have resentment towards him today because instead of partnering with me in this investigation…he ignored it. He’s interested now because he knows that this issue is sticking around, and underneath it all, he’s a very traditional man, with some real dominancy in him. Before I thought he was just stubborn. Now I know its purpose.

He’s a man….and he’s not broken.

I have come to the conclusion that submission can take many forms…not just the stuff we see and read about. I have to be careful, because I am reading the Gor books from the first onwards. There are some very seductive parts of Norman’s philosophy that make me double up..and not with laughter. There is this issue of submission and submission that is slavery, and some of it hits my gut hard. Perhaps it’s the overpowering presence of a strong male with power and control at his command. I don’t know, but I do know that we live in a real world, and men just aren’t like Norman’s sexy characters.

( has so much to do with it. I was thinking last night how wonderful that our genitals basically never wear out. Maybe our desire for our particular partners does, but our apparatus keeps going like the energizer bunny. At all ages…in I grow older, the sexual interests and desires reveal themselves to have different levels and a zest for adventure. That’s the good news. I was told so by a Dom I respect this is true. He’s in his 60’s and doesn’t seem to have any flagging yet.)

However…..I have noticed a change in my behavior for a while now. Before, faced with a dominant man, I would get mouthy and challenge him. I seemed to ‘have’ to reestablish my own power in light of what was in front of me. Now? Well, perhaps it’s a more ‘natural’ thing….

but if a man is truly powerful…I am amazed and I find myself reacting in a much different way. I feel more feminine. I feel that I don’t have to challenge him. And if I get to know him a bit….I assume that he will ‘protect’ me. Don’t ask me from what….pitbulls, flying glass, but that he just will.

A lot of men rail against feminism and the women’s movement for changing women from more traditional behaviors and in the doing..changing men. Confusing them. I think this is too shallow an answer to what shifted, happened, changed, between men and women over the last few decades. Economics and social pressures happened…women worked and had to for survival…and that of their families. Divorce, etc. All sorts of social changes happened.

John Norman talks about something called Natural Order…I’m not going to open a discussion here about that today, but perhaps if there is interest later…ok. (I find that there are numerous Goreans reading this site, though they rarely show their faces, but my stats show they are coming from Gorean sites or whatever…)

A lot of people in D/s blame women for being bossy, but from where I sit…men are just too lazy. Many like the fact that they don’t have to put forth any effort to ‘head the household’. I see this in many cultures, not only my own. They are broken men.

So, what is submission to you? I am getting a better idea what it is to me….but damn if it still isn’t so sexual.

I guess I just can’t get my hands out of my crotch.

Lady Nyo

avatara speaks, and good words too! I am moving this comment

September 26, 2008

to the face of the blog because I find her opinions add greatly to Rose’s points in the interview. I also find that both Rose and avatara, while two intelligent women who come from seemingly opposite sides of the spectrum, meet in the middle, so to speak and also have great commonality in argument. I agree with both of them, as different as they might be in practice. Both of them have been heavy hitters with me, and also very attentive to my own growth.

At a time when I was  confused about this issue of submission, and realizing that there was also dominance within my nature, I turned to both of them for further explanation. What their loving and attentive answers gave me was the beginning insight to my own nature and it was complex not a ‘simple’ issue. A woman did not just ‘fall to the feet of a man’, nor was I a woman who was looking for a man to take care of me, absolve me of my responsibilities, or punish me to ‘make’ me feel submissive.

I am a deeply submissive woman with  pieces of dominance in the mix. That doesn’t make me ‘not a true submissive’ as some would claim.

There are those who would try to strain that mixture into a bottle and cap it and label it, but I would still be a genii in a bottle and watch out if I ever got free of that cap. As both Rose and avatara have said here, we are much more complex creatures than that and this add beautifully to the end result.

That balance is there, and it is Imbalance when those parts, that make up the whole, are denied.  We are not totally one or the other, we are a delightful mixture.

Deal with it.

avatara: You all had to know I would chime in here (laughs)

Submission is something that is such a deep part of us, as deep as DNA and history, that It doesn’t have to be, nor should it be driven by external constructs….pressure from anyone, or anything.

Rather, it should be, as it was at one time, natural…We have lost sight of that…the nature part. In so many areas of life we have stepped aside from what is natural and accepted what (and my apologies to Rose here) our society and culture have tried to make us believe is the appropriate path. When I was growing up, the norm was that Mom was home taking care of the family while Dad was working to support the family. Perhaps the fact that my mother worked as well made me more aware of what I considered a “lack” at home. I don’t know. My father was a domineering man, harsh, angry in his reactions, and yet, his heart was soft and tender. He had been brought up in an environment where he had to be tough and unfeeling, unfair, in order to survive. He did support his family and mother was submissive to his decisions. The fact that she would never step in and speak to him when he was being domineering irritated me no end. It put me on a path that led me to be more dominant and controlling than I really wanted to be throughout my life. It also led me not to trust him.

As I have said to Jane often lately, nature abhors imbalance, it requires equality (shock), as Rose has pointed out. There is no totally submissive, nor is there totally dominant. There is a balance. The fact that nature intended for the male to be dominant, in his behavior, and to care for the submissive female and their offspring, doesn’t mean there isn’t room for balance between the two ends of the spectrum within an individual. Every human has a some of each within them. The key, and it is my passion to get this message out, is that a person figure out, for themselves, who and what they are and where the balance is for them. They have to understand themselves, accept who they are, and learn to love, and trust, who they are, before they ever look beyond themselves.

There should never be trust extended to someone else until one learns to trust themselves. I believe that “judgment” is a learned process, while tied to trusting oneself, which is developed over time, trial and error. The problem, as Rose mentioned is that we are social animals and there has to be trust within a group to function. The problem is, that there are no longer established social groups for us to grow into as we mature. At one time in this country, children grew up within a set community, with set standards and people that, over time, one knew they could trust. Now, that is seldom true unless one lives within a certain social status. We learn by trial and error how to recognize who to trust and who not to trust.

Another sad aspect is that we have been discouraged, on many levels, not to trust our innate intuition. Some people are afraid of that little voice that says “don’t go there, it isn’t safe, or that person isn’t a good person, or you are going to be in trouble”. So the one piece of equipment that might help us, is, in essence, disabled. So we go through life putting ourselves into situations, or with people, who end up hurting us. We stop trusting anyone and end up in a situation where we are somewhat cut off from people that we need in our lives.

As Rose said, Yin/Yang is everywhere in nature, within us, within the world we live in. Basically, in Chinese philosophy, it means the two fundamental principles, one negative, dark, passive, cold, wet, and feminine (yin) and the other (yang) positive, bright, active, dry, hot and masculine. The interactions and balance of these forces in people and nature influence their behavior. As I read that, I find it interesting that, as in so many things in nature, the masculine is the bright, active, positive influence. The male bird is the beautiful one, while the female is less bright. Perhaps it is because there are other, more fundamental, more important aspects to the female that should be focused on, rather than focusing on being “beautiful” by the world’s standards (sorry about the rabbit track) The reality is, there has to be balance in life, in an individual, and anyone who thinks they can judge capability by only one or two characteristics will be disappointed.

I agree with Rose, as well, that submission is not, or shouldn’t be, something you “feel”. I can’t tell you how many times I have heard, or read, someone saying “he holds me in my submission”, or “if I am not punished from time to time, I can’t feel my submission”. I AM a submissive woman, and how I “express” that submission has less to do with who I am with than it does with how I understand and accept myself. If I had to be at a man’s feet, or anywhere for that matter, in order to “feel” submitted or submissive, I would consider myself in need of deep introspection and maybe professional help. (smiles)

Where I differ with Rose is that, my submission is the same no matter where I am or who I am with. The “expression” of that submission will definitely differ, however, when I am faced with blatant ignorance, or some idiot on the interstate (smiles). Although I consider myself to be a Gorean woman because I studied the philosophies thereof, and slave, because I have given my complete submission to a Gorean man, I am still a very expressive, thinking, intelligent woman who doesn’t tolerate certain things. That doesn’t change my submission in any way, merely the expression of it. It doesn’t change the way I behave with my Master, nor the way I know I am to behave within certain groups. The difference is, I know how to express deference and respect, while still holding an opinion.

Someone once asked me what I would do if something were to happen to my Master and I wasn’t at his feet anymore, would I need to find another man to accept my submission? The answer to that is no, heartily no. It isn’t the man who makes me submissive, it is my inherent nature. Being able to express that nature to the extent I do today, requires a man, but I can express my nature just as well within other environments.

Where Rose is very right, and everyone should be aware of this, is that we don’t give up our rights, or responsibilities because we are submissive or at the feet of a man. Again, I don’t know how many times over the years I have seen women trolling through Gorean environments looking for a man to rescue them from whatever negative they perceive in their life. “I just can’t support myself, my boyfriend doesn’t love me, he doesn’t do what I want, he doesn’t this, or that, I don’t want to make decisions”. There is no more responsible person, no woman with more strength and determination than the truly submissive woman, whether she be slave Gorean, D/S, or not. We, as people, have to be the best, most honest, responsible, and realistic people in the world, Otherwise we won’t survive in a world that values unruly, bitchy women (smiles)

I might add to Rose’s point that you have the right to change your mind and leave…Not only do you have the right, you owe it to yourself, when you realize that you are in a relationship, or situation, that is hindering your growth, your understanding, or your fulfillment as a person, to move on. It may be the hardest choice you ever make, but one of my long time mantras has been “You can’t be good for someone else if you aren’t good for yourself”. I learned that the hard way and it is true. There should never be guilt for taking care of yourself, for searching for yourself, or for removing yourself from a bad situation. That should be one of the first things we are taught in life, that we, as human beings, are worthy and deserving of being ourselves, and we owe it to ourselves to learn who those selves are, and love them.

That is my passion…helping others to realize that they are vitally important people, who deserve to love and be loved, by themselves first. If that is in place, the rest of it will be so much easier…trusting others becomes easier if you know and trust yourself first.

Thank you Rose, for sharing so much of your life and thoughts here.

STATS: Someone who knows about these things…

September 17, 2008

told me to check them…I haven’t really done that, but there they were: 68 (now a few hours later….86) viewers within the hour of posting the last blog entry: “John Taurus and avatara”.

Also, “Lady Nyo’s blog” was in the Top Searches..(whatever that means)….what dog race this is I don’t know…but

I believe it means people are looking for answers on this D/s issue and so am I. I want to thank all those who have responded to the questionnaire…and there are more postings coming….and know that you do good service here. You have made these ratings with what you write and I am very proud to be part of the mix.

Lady Nyo

John Taurus is a local Dom and has responded

September 17, 2008

fast to the questions. I have known him for a while and know John to be a man of integrity. He has become a good friend and is always ready for discussion on these tricky issues of D/s and bdsm behaviors.

avatara is a Gorean woman with incredible insight into all these issues. She has been a great mentor to me as I try to understand these D/s issues. She also has become a firm friend and is generous with her knowledge, which is extensive. She is a deep thinker and I value her opinions on these issues.

L.N: What do you believe constitutes a “Good Dominant”? Or more so what characteristics do you think makes a good Dominant?

John Taurus: The same characteristics that constitute character are the same regardless of what community on chooses to be in. Knowing and respecting generally recognized protocols naturally are necessary for any community one chooses to be in, and bdsm is no different. So, to be “good”, on needs to spend the necessary time learning the protocols in order to be respectful of them.

LN: How do you develop trust with a new submissive? What are some of the issues with this? Is it a particularly “sticky” issue generally? Have you had other submissives where prior experience has led them to have ‘trust’ issues? How fundamental and deep can these go? Do you do anything ‘special’ to win the trust of someone who has had a bad experience?

JT: A dominant develops trust by being trustworthy; that is, staying within his integrity– doing what he will do, by when he says he will do it, and doing things that way he knows they’re supposed to be done. And if he errs, then he owns up to it and doesn’t step over it, but cleans up anything he needs to be responsible for.

LN: We hear a lot that respect is earned, not demanded. How do you think this is done? What has been helpful in your own practice?

JT: Personal integrity and honor lie at the heart of earning respect. It has to do with character.

LN: Many Doms say they cultivate submissives because they feel this is their nature to do so. But some do have the nature of predators as some of submissives have already reported in their interviews. What can a submissive watch out for to not fall into the clutches of a predator?

JT: A man who asserts that he’s a Dom, and who says he cultivates submissives because he feels this is in his nature should run as fast away from him as she can. Does it really take a 2″x4″ up side her head to get her attention?

LN: Where does negotiation begin? At what point within the relationship?

JT: Negotiation should begin when a Dom and a sub begin discussions on play together or on entering into a relationship, regardless of what nature and form the relationship takes or is anticipated to take.

LN: Where does friendship play into any of this? There are Doms who hold themselves aloof from any friendship. Do you see this as a problem?

JT: Anybody, dom or sub who holds themselves aloof from friendship probably has some underlying unresolved psychological issues and I would counsel caution with these particular individuals.

LN: Further, if the issue of sexual needs comes into play, as it seems it sometimes does, how can this relationship bypass exploitative means if no friendship from the Dom is offered? Is it a warning sign if a Dom expresses up front that there isn’t to be some kind of friendship or affection? Is affection a lead into other issues?

JT: Some people reason, and a good argument can be made for their position, that “casual sex” (regardless of how one frames it to fit a bdsm context) is honorable as long as a full disclosure preceeds that act itself. I have observed subs who will claim to be entering such a relationship of their own free will and accord, and who state that they understand and accept the terms; but more often than not it leads to emotional attachment and emotional pain. It’s enough to make a dom want to avoid casual sex, just so he can avoid all the emotional entanglement that comes from doing so. My personal opinion is that women who try to be emotionally like men (ie. empty and meaningless sexual activities for recreation) are going against their natural make-up, and the probability of emotional pain is increased and sometimes significantly.

LN: Is Mentoring the same as Domming? Is there a difference? Is sexual behavior allowed or should be allowed in a mentoring relationship? Discipline? Punishment? Rituals?

JT: A mentor should not be sexual with the person they are mentoring; doing so totally changes the nature of the relationship. A Mentor is a person who strives to help the person being mentored gain skill or knowledge in the community, and who holds themselves out as a friend who can be trusted. Punishment seems to me to be inappropriate; but discipline and rituals can certainly be part of the mentoring responsibilities.

LN: Are there distinct differences in mentoring and being a Dom? Some feel that a Dom calling themselves “Mentor” is another way to avoid the responsibilities of a Dom. They can take what they want from the relationship with the sub, and avoid the responsibility of domination. It then just becomes an issue of control no the part of the the so-proclaimed Mentor. Do you agree with this?

JT: Yes. I agree that there are dishonorable people around who are exploitative and predatory.

LN: What do you see are the responsibilities to a submissive from a Dominant? Should a submissive have a negotiated program from the beginning? How is a submissive developed without a particular program based on her strengths from the start? What is she to do with her time and how can she avoid the pitfalls of a Dom who is not really interested in her development, or doesn’t have the time for this in the real world?

JT: You ask a lot of questions! A Dom’s responsibilities are to stay within his integrity–do what he agrees to do within the boundaries of the negotiated arrangements. The questions you ask should be addressed by the negotiations, and these should be structured to fit the individuals involved. Sometimes the sub needs to teach her Dom a few things–I mean just because he is a Dom doesn’t mean he knows everything does it? Also, a Dom is not a mind reader, so a sub has the responsibility to communicate with her Dom. Does this sound similar to a vanilla relationship? They are more similar than dissimilar!

Thank you, John, for some very helpful answers.

avatara has some answers from her own experience that will be next.

Lady Nyo: What was it that made you feel you were a submissive or slave?

avatara: As phoenix expressed, I have always been a nurturing, caring, serving person, long before I ever heard of Gor, or M/s, or anything else. It is who I am at my core.

Lady Nyo: How long did you feel this way before you searched out some relief?

avatara: I don’t know that I ever felt a sense of pressure or lack of relief, because I didn’t know anything to gauge it against. I found ways to express my nature, such as remembering all the likes and dislikes of my partner, and making sure that they had those things most of the time. I expressed it in making sure there were always clean clothes and good meals cooked. I expressed it in making sure the environment of the home was, mostly, to his liking, etc. I did the same wherever I was, in family gatherings, etc., I has always helping with the work and serving in some way. If not actively doing something, I was there making others feel comfortable and contributing to their well being. The only time I actually fought the expression of my submission was toward the end of my marriage when I was so depressed I was barely able to function for myself. I never actually fought my nature itself.

Lady Nyo: Where you scared to even admit to this politically incorrect issue?

avatara: No, it never occurred to me to be other than I was, or to apologize for it. I’ve always been a rebel and never “fit in” with the rest of society, even in school, so it wasn’t scared, or even much bothered. It came as the most beautiful breath of fresh air to read a book that actually told me what I was, and justified me, to myself. I felt that I had always been a slave in terms of a deeply submissive woman, and to find out that there were actually people out there who knew what that was and wanted it? OMG, I can’t tell you how incredible that was. Again as phoenix stated, it was a natural as breathing, how could I deny it or be afraid of it?

Lady Nyo: Did you trust yourself or him easily?

avatara: I always was far too trusting of people, simply because I couldn’t believe bad about anyone. Throughout my life, if someone failed me, I assumed it was a lack on my part, not that they might be at fault <smiles> Submitting is so natural for me that I, like phoenix, don’t even realize it. Master will comment sometimes that my posture or expression was perhaps a little too submissive, when we meet other men. I have always trusted myself, for good or ill, but getting in touch with my deepest nature, forgiving myself for my past, and forgiving others, has taught me that I am truly worthy of my own trust.

Lady Nyo: Did you crave his control?

avatara: When you say control, do you mean physical control or emotional control? There is a vast difference. I have this internal control mechanism that is so strong, all it requires is a “look” from Master to make me realize I have overstepped. Usually it is something small, and the correction is immediate. I am harder on myself than he has ever been, but that is true of most healthy, deeply submissive women. I don’t require control to be myself, so I guess it comes down to the fact of being at his feet, or rather, being able to be with him.

Lady Nyo: Did you fight him:?

avatara: Well, unless you consider initial fear to be fighting, no <smiles> We first met online, and I “felt” his strength and character even there. What he made me feel, just by his presence was frightening to me. I hadn’t had much experience at that time, so tried to stay away from him. Finally I realized that there was a reason for the feelings so I approached him and we talked. We spent many months and several visits getting to know each other, and I learned that I could trust him implicitly. There was no reason to fight him after that because I know he won’t ever ask me to do, or be something harmful.

Lady Nyo: Did you ever care about the asymmetrical relationship?

avatara: No, not really. By the time we met, I had spent too many years in relationships that forced me to be dominant. I was grateful to be able to express my submission in ways that didn’t make me vulnerable…which sounds strange, but I knew he was trustworthy, thus I was free to completely submit to him. Knowing that I no longer had to be responsible to making decisions was wonderful, and freeing. Once I didn’t have to make them, I didn’t have any trouble doing so <smiles> at least the ones he wanted me to make. I never viewed life as “fair” or “unfair”, it was simply life. My Grandmothers probably didn’t think some things were fair either, but it was their “place” in life and they served with joy and love. How could I do otherwise.

Lady Nyo: Did you seek a particular philosophy? Like Gorean for example?

avatara: I consider myself to be Gorean because I read the books, studied what some of the best Gorean apologists alive had written, and literally thought my way through the series multiple times. What makes me who I am is not the man at whose feet I sit, but rather, what my nature dictates I am. Accepting my nature and living it, I believe, is the core message of the books. Because my Master is also a Gorean is complimentary, but we don’t make each other Gorean, we simply are already.

Lady Nyo: Did you have a hard time revealing your thoughts?

avatara:Yes. I had never considered my life, or myself, important enough to talk about, so when people asked me questions, I would usually re-direct the questions to them. I’m sure there are people out there today who wish I was still quiet <grin> Now, I realize I am a beautiful, vibrant, wise, submissive woman, and that I have knowledge that others might benefit from. I don’t go out selling it, but I make sure I am there for those who want to know.

Lady Nyo: Was he gentle with you in the beginning?

avatara: I wouldn’t say he was ever gentle, except perhaps in the areas where gentle are acceptable. He was self-assured and made sure I knew that his word was law. He never had to physically correct me, but just once, he told me I should perhaps reconsider my “place” with him. Just the hint that I would lose my condition as slave with him, devastated me like nothing else I have ever felt. It wasn’t even a matter of losing “him”, but my position with him. It amazed and astounded me, and maybe him, but I think he already knew what my reaction would be.

Lady Nyo: Did you want to submit to him fast? Or was it a long process?

avatara: The submission was there for him the minute he came online the first time. It isn’t something that one turns on or off, but it is always there. It calls out and draws people who recognize it. Having been introduced by a common friend I already knew he was a decent, trustworthy man, but we spent time getting to know each other before he accepted my submission to him.

Lady Nyo: Where do you think you are now in your path?

avatara: Sometimes I wonder what will happen to me if anything should happen to my Master, but I choose to celebrate the day, not worry about the future. Will I still be myself if I am not at his feet? Of course. He didn’t make me who and what I am. Will I feel the need to find another Master? I can’t say at this point. I know that I will be happier being able to serve a man, but it isn’t what makes me whole, it is just an expression of what is already there. So, for now, I am living and loving my life as a deeply submissive, submitted and committed woman at the feet of a man. Grateful for the opportunity, and for my friends.

Thank you, both, John Taurus and avatara for doing this interview. I know it helps to understand these issues by thinking deeply on your responses and also to read , as in avatara’s writing, her life and experiences. They make great promise and sense to me.

avatara’s weblog is found here:

The blog is being turned over to others next week,

September 11, 2008

some Doms and submissives and slaves and other folk. People have kept discussing this issue of D/s and attendant other issues so this will be a clearing board for those things next week.

People have read this today and have asked: Why in the world would you do this to your blog??? You are a writer, not a Domme….

LOL!..well, they are right about that! But we keep having these discussions between us, the Doms and the subs and the slaves and then me…who is struggling to figure out what she is in this context and has decided that she needs to learn more about herself… In the first person! LOL!

So, I decided why not? We keep talking, in separate units and it would be better to have it here than in little bits and pieces.

Besides, this is a safe place for women and men to discuss these issues without some of the issues that happen on other boards…We will be civil and gracious because I hold the delete button and am not afraid to use it…lol.

No, because everyone who has been invited to post their ideas and experiences are good and sane people and have become friends over the past months.  We’ve had many discussions between us,  why not here?

So this is a controlled experiment on a broad subject. Some will express Gorean opinions, some will come from the bdsm scene, and others will have a very different path, but much experience.

There is so far 5 Doms (and more promised) and more than a handful of submissives who are working off a Questionaire. In some cases the Doms have developed their own plans of attack for this blog issue. I am sure that the women will do the same. The Questionaire was just to be a point of guideline, a beginning.

And about those Doms?…..I know them , and have for, with the exception of one, have known them for months. That’s not long in the scheme of things, but they are fierce about protecting women . They all have sharp eyes for predators and frauds and I have seen 3 of them in action. The other 2 have good reputations and I am easy about them for good reasons.

So this has potential of being productive and for a lot of questions being answered. I hope. People so far are taking this with some measure of interest.

Some of the submissives are new and some have years of experience. Some of these gals are slaves. They come, as do the Doms, from many orientations. Some are Gorean. Some are not. We are going to see what commonalities we can find amongst us. We are going to try to hold the peace.

No one is restricted to the 8 questions, which are pretty fundamental, but are encouraged to write their own issues and experience.

It should be an interesting time of investigation into Domination and submission issues and different points of view and practice.

I am hopeful, but I have reason to hope. I like all that are contributing.

Lady Nyo

A little seachange here for me…I have been

September 9, 2008

in correspondence with a number of men who would be very much considered Dominant. I have also been in correspondence with quite a few women who consider themselves to be submissives. Some are even ‘slaves’ in the M/s context.

My head is rolling around  my shoulders right now, because each person, Dominant or submissive, has their own point of view and they all have legitimacy. The women especially have some stories that are cautionary and worth hearing. The men have some very strong points of view as to what true dominance is and how it should be dispensed.

So…I have decided to ask both Dominant and submissive to be guest bloggers for as long as the discussion flies, and perhaps this will be an interesting exercise in some philosophical clarity.

There are Doms out there writing about their methods and practice. There seems to be many submissives with blogs describing their own histories. So I thought it would be a good idea to allow this blog to be a meeting point for this discussion.

Some of the issues that have been raised to me privately are things like ‘service’…what is it and what importance does it have. What if any role does BDSM play in a D/s or M/s relationship.

Also, how do you bring out the dominance, or appeal to the dominance in men. And the submissiveness in women?

I will warn readers of this blog that some of these people are adherents of something call Gorean. Others aren’t, and that will make this mix richer. It’s a philosophy that was developed by John Norman from the Gor books. However, they seem to be a good sort of people…and none of these people are without opinions.

They are considering topics right now, so this discussion should be up and running in a while.

I am free…free of a decided opinion, but further I consider myself a Free Woman. In a sense, I am a pivot here, and I regard this ‘state’ as valuable until I know more about myself…and more about my own nature.

It will come in time….

Lady Nyo

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