to the face of the blog because I find her opinions add greatly to Rose’s points in the interview. I also find that both Rose and avatara, while two intelligent women who come from seemingly opposite sides of the spectrum, meet in the middle, so to speak and also have great commonality in argument. I agree with both of them, as different as they might be in practice. Both of them have been heavy hitters with me, and also very attentive to my own growth.
At a time when I was confused about this issue of submission, and realizing that there was also dominance within my nature, I turned to both of them for further explanation. What their loving and attentive answers gave me was the beginning insight to my own nature and it was complex not a ‘simple’ issue. A woman did not just ‘fall to the feet of a man’, nor was I a woman who was looking for a man to take care of me, absolve me of my responsibilities, or punish me to ‘make’ me feel submissive.
I am a deeply submissive woman with pieces of dominance in the mix. That doesn’t make me ‘not a true submissive’ as some would claim.
There are those who would try to strain that mixture into a bottle and cap it and label it, but I would still be a genii in a bottle and watch out if I ever got free of that cap. As both Rose and avatara have said here, we are much more complex creatures than that and this add beautifully to the end result.
That balance is there, and it is Imbalance when those parts, that make up the whole, are denied. We are not totally one or the other, we are a delightful mixture.
Deal with it.
avatara: You all had to know I would chime in here (laughs)
Submission is something that is such a deep part of us, as deep as DNA and history, that It doesn’t have to be, nor should it be driven by external constructs….pressure from anyone, or anything.
Rather, it should be, as it was at one time, natural…We have lost sight of that…the nature part. In so many areas of life we have stepped aside from what is natural and accepted what (and my apologies to Rose here) our society and culture have tried to make us believe is the appropriate path. When I was growing up, the norm was that Mom was home taking care of the family while Dad was working to support the family. Perhaps the fact that my mother worked as well made me more aware of what I considered a “lack” at home. I don’t know. My father was a domineering man, harsh, angry in his reactions, and yet, his heart was soft and tender. He had been brought up in an environment where he had to be tough and unfeeling, unfair, in order to survive. He did support his family and mother was submissive to his decisions. The fact that she would never step in and speak to him when he was being domineering irritated me no end. It put me on a path that led me to be more dominant and controlling than I really wanted to be throughout my life. It also led me not to trust him.
As I have said to Jane often lately, nature abhors imbalance, it requires equality (shock), as Rose has pointed out. There is no totally submissive, nor is there totally dominant. There is a balance. The fact that nature intended for the male to be dominant, in his behavior, and to care for the submissive female and their offspring, doesn’t mean there isn’t room for balance between the two ends of the spectrum within an individual. Every human has a some of each within them. The key, and it is my passion to get this message out, is that a person figure out, for themselves, who and what they are and where the balance is for them. They have to understand themselves, accept who they are, and learn to love, and trust, who they are, before they ever look beyond themselves.
There should never be trust extended to someone else until one learns to trust themselves. I believe that “judgment” is a learned process, while tied to trusting oneself, which is developed over time, trial and error. The problem, as Rose mentioned is that we are social animals and there has to be trust within a group to function. The problem is, that there are no longer established social groups for us to grow into as we mature. At one time in this country, children grew up within a set community, with set standards and people that, over time, one knew they could trust. Now, that is seldom true unless one lives within a certain social status. We learn by trial and error how to recognize who to trust and who not to trust.
Another sad aspect is that we have been discouraged, on many levels, not to trust our innate intuition. Some people are afraid of that little voice that says “don’t go there, it isn’t safe, or that person isn’t a good person, or you are going to be in trouble”. So the one piece of equipment that might help us, is, in essence, disabled. So we go through life putting ourselves into situations, or with people, who end up hurting us. We stop trusting anyone and end up in a situation where we are somewhat cut off from people that we need in our lives.
As Rose said, Yin/Yang is everywhere in nature, within us, within the world we live in. Basically, in Chinese philosophy, it means the two fundamental principles, one negative, dark, passive, cold, wet, and feminine (yin) and the other (yang) positive, bright, active, dry, hot and masculine. The interactions and balance of these forces in people and nature influence their behavior. As I read that, I find it interesting that, as in so many things in nature, the masculine is the bright, active, positive influence. The male bird is the beautiful one, while the female is less bright. Perhaps it is because there are other, more fundamental, more important aspects to the female that should be focused on, rather than focusing on being “beautiful” by the world’s standards (sorry about the rabbit track) The reality is, there has to be balance in life, in an individual, and anyone who thinks they can judge capability by only one or two characteristics will be disappointed.
I agree with Rose, as well, that submission is not, or shouldn’t be, something you “feel”. I can’t tell you how many times I have heard, or read, someone saying “he holds me in my submission”, or “if I am not punished from time to time, I can’t feel my submission”. I AM a submissive woman, and how I “express” that submission has less to do with who I am with than it does with how I understand and accept myself. If I had to be at a man’s feet, or anywhere for that matter, in order to “feel” submitted or submissive, I would consider myself in need of deep introspection and maybe professional help. (smiles)
Where I differ with Rose is that, my submission is the same no matter where I am or who I am with. The “expression” of that submission will definitely differ, however, when I am faced with blatant ignorance, or some idiot on the interstate (smiles). Although I consider myself to be a Gorean woman because I studied the philosophies thereof, and slave, because I have given my complete submission to a Gorean man, I am still a very expressive, thinking, intelligent woman who doesn’t tolerate certain things. That doesn’t change my submission in any way, merely the expression of it. It doesn’t change the way I behave with my Master, nor the way I know I am to behave within certain groups. The difference is, I know how to express deference and respect, while still holding an opinion.
Someone once asked me what I would do if something were to happen to my Master and I wasn’t at his feet anymore, would I need to find another man to accept my submission? The answer to that is no, heartily no. It isn’t the man who makes me submissive, it is my inherent nature. Being able to express that nature to the extent I do today, requires a man, but I can express my nature just as well within other environments.
Where Rose is very right, and everyone should be aware of this, is that we don’t give up our rights, or responsibilities because we are submissive or at the feet of a man. Again, I don’t know how many times over the years I have seen women trolling through Gorean environments looking for a man to rescue them from whatever negative they perceive in their life. “I just can’t support myself, my boyfriend doesn’t love me, he doesn’t do what I want, he doesn’t this, or that, I don’t want to make decisions”. There is no more responsible person, no woman with more strength and determination than the truly submissive woman, whether she be slave Gorean, D/S, or not. We, as people, have to be the best, most honest, responsible, and realistic people in the world, Otherwise we won’t survive in a world that values unruly, bitchy women (smiles)
I might add to Rose’s point that you have the right to change your mind and leave…Not only do you have the right, you owe it to yourself, when you realize that you are in a relationship, or situation, that is hindering your growth, your understanding, or your fulfillment as a person, to move on. It may be the hardest choice you ever make, but one of my long time mantras has been “You can’t be good for someone else if you aren’t good for yourself”. I learned that the hard way and it is true. There should never be guilt for taking care of yourself, for searching for yourself, or for removing yourself from a bad situation. That should be one of the first things we are taught in life, that we, as human beings, are worthy and deserving of being ourselves, and we owe it to ourselves to learn who those selves are, and love them.
That is my passion…helping others to realize that they are vitally important people, who deserve to love and be loved, by themselves first. If that is in place, the rest of it will be so much easier…trusting others becomes easier if you know and trust yourself first.
Thank you Rose, for sharing so much of your life and thoughts here.
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