“Devil’s Revenge”, Chapter 11

This chapter begins the building of allies of the two Demons, Garrett and Obadiah. Obadiah has already harnessed two minor (or common) demons, Salaah and Cheitan, to do his bidding. Garrett has to step up his game, but realizes Obadiah has become more powerful. The study of medieval demonology took very seriously this issue of powers in Hell, and this influences the action in “Devil’s Revenge”. Bess has been raped (in a previous chapter not posted) and the fear is that Obadiah will use his gathering forces to snatch her from under his arch rival’s nose.

Lady Nyo

DEVIL’S REVENGE

CHAPTER 11

I was standing at a window in this bedroom. I found myself more and more in his world, the world of the Demon. I was not sure of the sequence of time, but it seemed that every few days I appeared back in this room. Today, I was busy for a number of hours writing a chapter, one I hoped would bring me to the last one, the conclusion of the novel. I have been in starts and stops over it for the past month, and have trouble forming my thoughts. Of course, there has been much to distract me. His presence in my ‘life’, for I guess you could call this life, has been a major obstacle in finishing it. He is entertaining but brings much chaos to my existence.

All in all, it’s been a fruitful time, for if I stumbled in the writing, there is much to take up my imagination. I have found out numerous things about him. He is a jealous demon, who prates he will chase away any competition, and has little regard for my earthly marriage. He already admits he visits me, and not just in my dreams, but takes a seat next to my bed, and involves himself in my sleep. My patient husband sleeps deeply, and I am not sure Garrett, the mortal name of the Demon, does not have his hand in this. A dear friend from the ‘north country’ as my Demon calls him, already has caught his interest, and he has as much threatened me with some foul magic if I continue to converse with him. I will not bow to his threats, for I think he has become fond of me, and does not want my displeasure. He can be a bully but I know now he needs much assurance from me, and that I give most willingly. I have grown as fond of him, as he seems to have of me, though he goes to great pains to hide it. His human side seems to be growing.

Ah! The masculine vanity! Alive even in immortals!

I was looking out on a bleak landscape, standing at the window. The middle of winter, and there was fog swirling on the ground around a clump of trees in the midground distance. Or it looked like fog. But then again, it came together like smoke and rose from a central point in the trees. How strange. It whirled and eddied and took shape like smoke from a chimney. It held my attention and I thought I could easily go out for a walk. I threw on my red cloak and went downstairs and out the front door. It was not a long walk to the stand of trees where I saw the smoke, and I felt a strange compulsion to follow. The trees were bare of all leaves, their black limbs silhouetted against the gray, winter sky. I walked through them, feeling a sense of discovery, being pulled by my curiosity. There, before me, was perhaps a low fire, though I can’t see any flame. The smoke was thick, and it seemed to pour from the ground! As I looked upwards, around the trees, there were blackbirds perched in the limbs. They were totally silent, which is strange for a flock of blackbirds. Suddenly the smoke parted, and there, sitting on a stump, about twenty feet from me, was Obadiah!

Oh! I couldn’t tell if he was an apparition, a ghost, or something else, but he sat there, his long legs stretched out before him, crossed one upon the other, and his arms crossed over his chest. He was not wearing a coat, but was dressed in a white, linen shirt, with a black stock wound around his neck. His face had no expression, but his eyes pierced me with their intensity, and I wavered where I stood, not sure what to do. He smiled at me, a mocking smile, devoid of any kindness. For some reason I found myself drawn to him as in a trance. I should be afraid of him, considering what he has done to me, but I was not. I was excited and unsettled, perhaps fear plays into these emotions, but curiosity and a perverse desire was overcoming all else, all caution.

Suddenly, I was laid out on the ground, pushed violently from behind. Obadiah disappeared in a flash, and standing over me was Garrett. He had a sword in his hand, and his face was terrible to see. He grabbed me by the wrist and pulled me to my feet, scowling and in a fine high temper. He dragged me out of the glen and I don’t remember my feet even touching the ground. I heard the bedroom door slamming shut. It was as if I was in a dream, or a trance, and I tried to shake myself awake.

“You damn little fool!”

I heard something clatter. He had thrown the sword from him onto the floor.

He was furious, and grabbed me by the shoulders, shaking me hard, like a rat caught by a terrier. My head was thrown back and forth by his violence and I thought my neck would snap. He released me and I fell to the floor. I lay there for a moment, aware he was standing over me. I could still feel his wrath, like a thick fog in the air. I gasped with fear, and turned to look up at him. By the look on his face I thought he would kill me.

“Nay, get off the floor. You look like a kicked dog. I’ll not harm you more.”

His voice was strange, as if his anger had broken him. He extended his hand and pulled me to my feet, where he looked at me closely. I could tell he was still angry, but he was trying his best not to act upon it.

However, I was now furious. How dare he shake me like a child! How dare he throw me to the ground! Without another thought, I raised my hand and hit him hard across the face. I saw his surprise, and then, to my horror, heard a hollow laugh. He grabbed both of my wrists in his hands before I could think and pinned them behind me. He did not spare me any pain in the doing.

“So you want to play rough, do you?” He laughed again, and sat down in a chair. He up ended me across his lap and pulled up my skirts. He exposed my nakedness and beat me hard with his hand. I yelled loudly, and cursed him with all the names I could think of. He thrashed me, hitting my buttocks and also the tops of my legs. I screamed out until I thought I would go hoarse. I cried and pleaded with him, yet he did not spare me his blows. Throwing me to the bed I cried and sobbed mightily, more from fear than pain, but there certainly was enough of that! My butt was burning with his blows. I hated him thoroughly, for I had never been treated like this before. I cried myself out and he didn’t offer a word of compassion or apology. When I finally uncovered my face from the pillows, I saw him sitting there, smoking his pipe, like nothing in the world had happened. I felt humiliated and belittled. Obviously this was his purpose.

“Tell me,” he said between puffs. “Tell me what possessed you to leave this room and go into the woods.”

His eyes glittered through the smoke. Now that I knew he would not spare me his hands, I was afraid of him.

“Oh, my dear Bess, I can smell your fear, but that is not what I am after. Tell me, now, why you went into the woods.”

I rose up from my stomach, and gingerly sat on the bed. My butt hurt. He certainly was strong.

“I don’t know. I saw some smoke coming from the glen, and I thought it interesting. I felt curious.”

“Ah. Did you feel drawn to the woods?” He puffed more forcefully on his pipe.

“Well, the smoke drew me, but then when I got there, I felt strangely drawn to the trees. The birds were silent, no birdsong. I remember that.”

“Looks like Obadiah has called upon other forces for his designs.” He puffed on his pipe. “Seems like he is getting a bit desperate.”

“What do you mean?”

“He is charming you and others to do his bidding. I don’t like it a bit. Makes me work harder, something I generally avoid. Looks like he’s ready for battle.” He spit on the floor and I grimaced at him.

“Who is he charming, you make no sense?” None of this made sense at all.

The Demon thought a bit before answering.

“You asked me before about my world. Well, there are many worlds. I frequent a number of them. This one, where I appear to you, is full of characters. I get lost in the numbers, can’t remember all the hierarchy. But it’s simple enough, or at least I’ll make it simple enough for you. Listen closely.”

He packed down his pipe with his thumb, though the tobacco glowed red in the bowl.

“Demons are intermediaries between gods and men. Most of us, what you call ‘demons’ were once men. We were not angels. Don’t make that mistake. No, there are lots of shapes and shifts abounding. There are Fates, who alter destiny, there are what you know as poltergeists, who cause much mischief, there are the incubi and succubae you have already experienced (here he tipped his pipe in my direction), there are familiars, who assist what you call witches.”

He puffed on his pipe, and a blue smoke whirled above his head in lazy, sensual spirals.

“There are Demons formed from human semen.” Here he grinned crazily, the smoke swirling around his face, obscuring his eyes.

“There are disguised Demons, which I fear our friend Obadiah is, makes it tricky in dealing with him. And there are Demons that instigate Witchcraft. I don’t know what we are dealing with at present, but we are about to find out. He grows more powerful.”

“Is he more powerful than you?” Oh! I have such fear about this!

He grimaces around the stem of his pipe. “No, I’m still more powerful. But he grows. And he has enough tricks to harness Cheitan and Saalah to do his bidding.” He barked a short, bitter laugh.

“And who are they?” I didn’t like the sound of this.

“They are some minor demons, spirits if you will. Not of much merit, but amenable to a bribe. Cheitan is the demon of Smoke and Saalah is a demon that entices women into the wood. All kinds of mischief can befall a maid in the wood. They are known as some of the ‘Devil’s Handmaids’”.

He puffed on his pipe, sending up a plume of smoke to the ceiling that circled around as it hit the beams and spread outward. An example of “Cheitan”?

“And about your being in the wood, my dear lady. Very foolish of you. Had I not come at the moment I did, you would have suffered another rape by Obadiah. He seems to delight in taking his perverse pleasures with you. You can now thank me for saving you from an even more terrible attack than last time.”

What worse could he do to me than when he raped me? I shivered, remembering those details.

“Oh, there are plenty of tricks he could render upon your soft body, my darling,” said the demon, reading my thoughts. “What he did the first time was just a first course for his appetite. You forget we demons have terrific appetites, especially for mortal women. Your flesh, especially those places between your soft, white thighs, are irresistible to us.” He leered at me. Nasty bastard.

“And with what bribe does he induce them to work for him?”

“Probably your blood, or a piece of your flesh. Or, if he’s in a particularly generous mood, a piece of your ass. Of course, that would be after he has sated himself on your charms. He would turn you over to them, where they would use you until they were bored and would tear you to pieces.”

Oh, what a terrible mouth on him! But now I was really afraid.

“You see, my dear, as long as Obadiah thinks that you are, ah, I think you call it “a free agent’ in your world? Well, as long as Obadiah thinks he can take you at will, even from under my nose, he will come back and try again. There are only a few ways to discourage him from this behavior.”

“What do you want me to do?”

“Well, it is not by my authority to tell you how to end your novel, but killing him off would help….for a while. That would be one way. There is another way, but you would not want to go down that path.” He laughed to himself, and puffed hard on his pipe, his eyes glittering with mischief.

“And what is that path, dear Demon?”

It seemed the room darkened, or perhaps the sky did outside. But something changed. He still sat in his chair but it seemed he was whispering in my ear.

“A woman is much happier if she has a Master. Authority thrills a woman, my darling. Nothing but complete subjugation will finally satisfy her.”

He smiled at me, and I shivered at his words. What a strange and alien a concept to me. To call him “Master”!

“In the animal world, its nature’s decree the male shall dominate. And you are my little vixen, my little red fox.” He smiled around the stem of his pipe. “And I am very much the male here.”

I would not dispute that statement. He was more ‘masculine’ than ten men– twenty. And very proud of it. No ‘metrosexual’ confusion for him.

“You know, sweetheart, I am thinking Obadiah is more a very powerful incubus. Certainly a devil, he comes by that honestly, but…. Sexual relations with an incubus are decidedly unpleasant and an often painful affair. I think that you would agree with that.”

He would get no argument from me.

“So, Demon, what are you saying I should do?”

“Why don’t you refer to me as Demon Lover anymore?”

“After that beating? What do you think?

“Look, Bess, I think that you should come under my power completely, and let it be known.” He grinned broadly. Oh! This was fun for him!

“What is it you are saying I do?”

“Sex is a powerful thing in our worlds, as well as yours. I am suggesting you become my consort, for as long as you inhabit my world. That could be a long time, it depends upon things.”

“What things, Demon?”

“Ah, that I have no competition in your heart and mind, that you submit to everything I say and do, and that I am Master of you and your body. That you obey me and submit to me in all things.”

“I don’t know. You know that I am married.”

“Well, I can not trample upon your marriage vows, came long before me.”

“So did my friends, Garrett.”

“Ah, that is another complication. But I will look the other way if you please me in all other things.”

“Are you talking about whips and chains and things, Devil?”

He laughed. “Why in Hell’s good name would I need such things? I’m talking about the natural roles of man and woman, or in this case, Demon and mortal woman. What could be clearer?”

“You have lost me. I don’t know anything of subjugation or submission. We modern women tend to avoid all such talk and behavior.”

“And are you any happier for it?” His eyes glittered through the smoke he exhaled.

He had me there. Relations in the twenty first century were confusing enough. Was there any real happiness between men and woman? There was a lot of anger, and sham, and moving about, exchanging partners and forming anew. There was a lot of unhappiness and divorces. The roles between women and men seemed to be mandated by some chaos that we danced to faster and faster. The ‘natural’ roles that seemed to work for past generations were lost to us now. Women were more like men, and men! God! They were like women! Most women I knew had more ‘friends’ who were homosexual, gays, than girlfriends. They were interchangeable. The roles and relations had become very confused. Perhaps he had a point here. Perhaps what he was proposing was a balancing of the roles. The strong man (or devil) and the soft, weaker, woman. Perhaps he was on to something.

“You promise not to hurt me?” I asked him seriously. I don’t know what I was afraid of, but I was.

He shook his head at me in wonder, and laughed. “Are woman from your century so distanced from their natures that they don’t trust the masculine? Can you place your heart and body in my hands and know I will protect you? What is it that men do in your domain? Do they not occupy this fundamental role?”

“Well, not without a lot of confusion, Garrett. They get mixed messages from all sorts of places. I don’t think modern men know what to do with women.”

He laughed delightedly and gave me his opinion. “You fuck them good, and often, and they keep you entertained. It’s really an easy exchange. They lay down and spread their legs on demand, and you chase off all the wolves. What’s so hard about that?”

Ah, he is a trying and primitive Demon! He has the manners of a goat, but that I have told him before. It is an exchange he is proposing here. My protection and security from Obadiah if I ‘cleave’ myself to him completely. He hasn’t given me much to go on yet, but I am interested in his idea. And he has allowed my marriage and my friendship (there are others he doesn’t know about) and promises to wink at them.

In any case, I am way over my head here, and not believing in anything supernatural or paranormal, I find myself at a disadvantage. He holds all the cards right now, and I am at his mercy. My fear of Obadiah and what he can do overcomes my disdain for my overpowering, vulgar demon.

Hopefully, he will be a kind and generous ‘Master.’ I think this is called ‘bargaining with the Devil’.

Jane Kohut-Bartels
copyrighted, 2006, 2013

A Woman’s Blessing and this issue of Submission.

Talking to a good friend this morning who just went through a major surgery, we were exchanging garden observations.  Her zucchinis and cukes are in overabundance and I have none.  We both have tomatoes but none too red.  The point of this is just that we both, being women, enjoy the gardening and all the issues of keeping our families fed, our houses bearable, and the summer canning and usage of good things from the garden.

We both went through this issue of “submission” and what it means for women.  At least women either interested or influenced in some way by D/s.  We found a lot of holes in the doing, and especially from the lips of men.

Distilled down, we thought it an  issue that could be good and very bad.  It could be something that cleaved us more to our husbands or it could curtail our creativity, our growth.  I’ve seen it both ways.  Some men are so insecure, especially from what I have seen in the hard-line ‘Gorean’ species,  (which is why when you base your philosophies on fairy tales, you could end up counting angels on the heads of pins…) and in the bdsm scene a lot….well, somethings are just stupid.

My friend and I have talked a lot about these issues:  what defines us as women?  Well, it’s in the day to day…and we don’t need no stinky bdsm philosophies to ‘tell’ us what we are.

I am blessed to have the freedom to work at home.   My dear Husband does not need me to work outside the home to supplant the home finances, he thinks in his German- Catholic upbringing that women should be ‘allowed’ to keep the home fires burning.

To that end I think my responsibilities are to constantly feed that home fire.  I do teach belly dancing, and that doesn’t bring in much money, but he has great hope I will become that elusive “famous author” someday  and make money this way.

Hah!  He knows nothing of publishing, literary fiction, what is happening in the publishing world especially right now, and he doesn’t know the competition.  But he loves to read my novels and stories and he foots all the bills for  publishing and promotion.   He thinks that is part of his role, to be supportive in all my endeavors.

He’s a wonderful man.  Secure in himself, with what he already is, he is a wonderful example of a decent and compassionate man.  His wiring is good.

After a recent period of some strange influences, we have come to a balance within our marriage.  I have all the freedoms to do as I want and this makes it imperative that I expend this freedom in the best ways possible. I know now what it is that makes me  happy and it’s a simple connection with what makes this marriage and family run in the best ways.  Or something like that.

Today I have been repairing linens, cutting out the pieces for a white, cotton kimono to wear as I dash from the shower in the garden to the house. I’ve made 4 pints of grape  and 10 pints of kudzu jelly.  I am planning on making loaves of french bread for this evening to go with the basil pesto.  I’ve collected eggs from our hens and checked on the growth of the tomatoes and grapes (this last is rather screwy. First year for grapes so we don’t know what we should be looking for, but they are tiny purple/black things and very bitter.)

These chores, which are really blessings, I account for the responsibilities I have to this marriage and family.  I don’t know where these issues of submission come in anymore, because what we have found out is this:

There is a balance within the ‘nature’ of both the man and woman in this house.  We are settled into the natural routine that pleases us both and gives the greatest amount of comfort and security.  If this is submission, I  embrace it, but it certainly is not what I have observed in many cases.

Yes, yes, I know about this issue of ‘power-exchange’.  We are ignoring it.  Or at least tending to it.  We both know our roles and there is peace.

As to his ‘dominance’, it’s a natural flow from his character as a man. He knows his duties and leads by doing.  He is a fine example to our only child, a son.  He has no rattling ego to dodge or to fear.  He is a naturally manly man whose only bad habit is to goose the wife when she is bent over the oven with hot things in her hands.

Overall, blessings to stroke and to cherish.

KUDZU JELLY… a Southern jelly.   That weed from Japan.

4 cups of kudzu flowers (those purple/lavender blooms that look like wisteria blooms under the leaves)

4 cups of boiling water.

Seep overnight in the fridge.  A gray liquid results when you strain the flowers from the bowl.  Throw flowers away, and keep the gray liquid.  Heat up in high pan and put 1 lemon of fresh juice into the gray liquid and it become purple!  Boil for a few minutes with 6 cups of sugar and throw in one packet of liquid pectin (or powdered).

Boil for one minute.

IF you boil your lids for a few minutes, you can usually decant the jelly into the CLEAN glass jars and screw down lids, turn over for 30 minutes or so, and you don’t have to seal in a pressure cooker.

Kudzu jelly is a beautiful clear jelly that tastes like a cross of grape and strawberry.  Keeps forever, but we give them away as holiday gifts.

Lady Nyo

What is Submission? II

Since this entry seems to pop up from time to time, with other entries on D/s, submission, I have a word of caution here.

A few years ago I was involved with a man in Montreal, who called himself Mackenzie Cross, but his real name was Jerry Go-lick.  He ‘promised’ enhancement, and because I was stupid and naive, I fell for his gab.  He was a silver tongued devil, but in the end, he was just a liar. A calculated liar.

Where I have put forth praise of submission, etc….I want to backtrack.  I was involved (really on the outskirts mostly) in bdsm because I thought it might have some answers.  It didn’t.

My experience was this:  Most of the so-called ‘doms’ I met, online and in person…were wanky, insecure, massively unbalanced and stupid men.  Some obviously, because of physical deficiences….fat, unattractive,  bad personalities, or outright psychosis, were not able to attract women in the ‘normal’ ways.  They sat behind computers because then they could be anything to anyone.  Those I met in person?  They had their own bag of issues:  many of these men are just players and fit the catagory above.  Sociopaths LOVE computers.

As for the women? These ‘submissives’?  Many of them were desperate, lard-assed women who just wanted a man to pay attention to them, to micro-manage them so they didn’t have to bother with their lives….sounds so ‘freeing’. Yeah, I really want a man to give me permission to go to the loo or when to sit down.

And surprisingly, most of these women are married, as was I.  What disturbs me most is the constant disloyalty of these women towards their husbands:  In many cases, every morsel of food they put in their mouths comes from the labor of their husbands.  But they have no problem talking about them on their blogs like they are dogs. This disloyalty is destructive to marriage and  says much more about themselves than their husbands.

My marriage survived this jackass in Montreal.  I survived this experience.  But in no way was it an ’empowering’ or ‘enhancing’ experience.  It was a stupid, demeaning hell.

Only by realizing that I didn’t need the so-called ‘help’ of a man who was nothing but a sham and a liar….that empowerment was something I already had spades of, ….did I come out of that stupid and insulting period.

Understanding yourself, what you self-worth really is, is the answer to all the nastiness of the world.  Once you understand this, you don’t need these terribly unequal relationships.

I would advise those who are truly seeking answers, or are confused about this crap, to read the website of EOPC:

http://cyberpaths.blogspot.com

Lady Nyo, aka Jane

It surprised me when Jane invited me to contribute t

I am posting this on the blog surface, because it is a very well thought out opinion.  It gives a LOT to think about, and perhaps others, especially the thinking Goreans, will respond.

Regardless, it is very welcome on my blog, because after all…it’s all about investigation into differently held patterns of behavior.

And philosophies….

Lady Nyo

 

My Dear Jane-Elisabeth

The Natural Order is a very seductive but ultimately false concept, on a par with Creationism and Mutually Assured Destruction.

Would you consider a lioness in full hunt to be submissive? The full maned magnificent lion sleeping in the sun, lazy and idle, only rousing during the season to mate purfuntorily with its harem, as truly attractive in its sexual dominance?

I agree that men are in many cases confused but that is a consequence of social change in the Western World. I think that if you were offered the choice of living truly as a slave, ill educated, without choice and no horizon beyond the hearth with the attention of a man when he so chose you might think twice.

I have written to you before on Dominance and submission and its often straying into pain and pleasure.

My views remain unchanged. I too have read the fantasy works of Norman and others, they were a product of their time, they have no ‘philosophy’ only the fantasy wish fulfillment of the author. They have no deeper message other than the writer exploring their own sensual feelings and creating a self satisfying world.

I have written works of non concensual erotic slavery and utter dominance. They pleased me to write and many to read from their comments in response. But I do not espouse them as philosophical works nor do I seek followers.

Yes, women come to me as you well know, you are aware of what transpires, the depths of sensuality and the breaking down of their psychological barriers and boundaries through overwhelming pleasure and, if appropriate, pain. The depths of emotional and sexual turmoil.

It scares you.

There is some safety in the stereotype, the Master and slave of common thought. There are ‘limits’ understood ‘edges’. Gorean and other ‘styles’ are just that. Fashion statements for followers not leaders.

You will know what I mean when I remind you that a true leader will tire of the inanity of what is created by their followers?

Norman like Hubbard would laugh to see what their followers have done with their fantasies.  Azimov once wrote a short story about Shakespeare and had him say, as he shook his head coming out from a contemporary university lecture on his works. ‘Methinks they could wring a flood from a damp breechclout’.

I have little or no patience with elaborate social practices and belief structures built upon flimsy fantasy.

What you describe as a reaction to a quietly confident and psychologically strong man is little more than the mating instinct. If you want natural order that is where you should turn. Read Desmond Morriss and his classic The Naked Ape and other works. It is in fact ALL about sex.

What happens beyond is an overlay of justification.

I have worked with women and stripped them down to their cores. After exposing layer after layer through fantasy, orgasm and pain to get to that basic issue. It is about opening, spreading, accepting and welcoming the entry. Everything else just gets in the way.

For myself, what have I learned?

That I take huge pleasure from control. The control of a partner in their extremis. Orgasmic release is merely a pleasant part of the pleasure for me. To lead a partner, not by force but by tenderness and firm direction to their furthest boundary and show them what more there is to feel beyond. But it is personal, self knowledge not a cathechism to read and follow, a book of instructions or a pattern of learned behaviour or behaviour to ‘fit in’. I wish to be my own man and I am certain you want to be your own woman.

You may reject this as too controversial, too dismissive of others dearly held and very real beliefs. But I can only speak as I find.

My respect and warm regards

 

Phil.

 

—

UPDATE:  Friend Phil makes some assumptions, though that era was rather confusing to myself and my friends, and Phil certainly was a friend.

No, Phil, It did not scare me….it excited me in ways I hadn’t considered.  But there was real danger.

And the danger is this:  We can place …or attempt to place ourselves….our precious selves…into hands that are mean, niggardly, potentially destructive, and in the end….evil.  However, this time was one of great learning….that I didn’t need false gurus to be telling me about my life:  after all these years I was experiencing exactly what was necessary to grow.

I had given up something of myself for a very short time to an unworthy fellow who turned out to be nothing but a silly cad.  Certainly not worth my trust and respect for what he revealed himself to be in the end: a liar.

But ultimately?  We learn…and when we again trust ourselves…we can quickly scan those false gurus and walk on by.

Lady Nyo

What is Submission?

We had some discussion a while back about submission, but it wasn’t completed. Because of further private discussion I am raising it again, thought it will make some groan. Tant pis.

Friends (and some enemies) know that I have struggled to come to a place with this issue. A year ago I started some research/discovery, and was caught up in so many harrowing issues. I either fought it/denied it/tried to manipulate it/disown it…sometimes all at the same time. I just couldn’t get a handle on it.

Part of the problem I believe was I came to the ‘subject’ late in life. I’m no spring chicken. I also have had to be very dominant in my life before. Some know that because of some particular work I carried a gun. That will impact your ideas about yourself, even if you have no idea of submission. Coming upon this issue of submission, I really struggled…still do. My husband was of no help at all. He was hoping any D/s issue would fly by and I would come to my senses. Well, I didn’t…..and once that became obvious to him, he started to get interested…in part of being a dominant. But there was a lag of almost two years and I went through a lot. I admit I have resentment towards him today because instead of partnering with me in this investigation…he ignored it. He’s interested now because he knows that this issue is sticking around, and underneath it all, he’s a very traditional man, with some real dominancy in him. Before I thought he was just stubborn. Now I know its purpose.

He’s a man….and he’s not broken.

I have come to the conclusion that submission can take many forms…not just the stuff we see and read about. I have to be careful, because I am reading the Gor books from the first onwards. There are some very seductive parts of Norman’s philosophy that make me double up..and not with laughter. There is this issue of submission and submission that is slavery, and some of it hits my gut hard. Perhaps it’s the overpowering presence of a strong male with power and control at his command. I don’t know, but I do know that we live in a real world, and men just aren’t like Norman’s sexy characters.

(And..sex has so much to do with it. I was thinking last night how wonderful that our genitals basically never wear out. Maybe our desire for our particular partners does, but our apparatus keeps going like the energizer bunny. At all ages…in fact..as I grow older, the sexual interests and desires reveal themselves to have different levels and a zest for adventure. That’s the good news. I was told so by a Dom I respect this is true. He’s in his 60’s and doesn’t seem to have any flagging yet.)

However…..I have noticed a change in my behavior for a while now. Before, faced with a dominant man, I would get mouthy and challenge him. I seemed to ‘have’ to reestablish my own power in light of what was in front of me. Now? Well, perhaps it’s a more ‘natural’ thing….

but if a man is truly powerful…I am amazed and I find myself reacting in a much different way. I feel more feminine. I feel that I don’t have to challenge him. And if I get to know him a bit….I assume that he will ‘protect’ me. Don’t ask me from what….pitbulls, flying glass, but that he just will.

A lot of men rail against feminism and the women’s movement for changing women from more traditional behaviors and in the doing..changing men. Confusing them. I think this is too shallow an answer to what shifted, happened, changed, between men and women over the last few decades. Economics and social pressures happened…women worked and had to for survival…and that of their families. Divorce, etc. All sorts of social changes happened.

John Norman talks about something called Natural Order…I’m not going to open a discussion here about that today, but perhaps if there is interest later…ok. (I find that there are numerous Goreans reading this site, though they rarely show their faces, but my stats show they are coming from Gorean sites or whatever…)

A lot of people in D/s blame women for being bossy, but from where I sit…men are just too lazy. Many like the fact that they don’t have to put forth any effort to ‘head the household’. I see this in many cultures, not only my own. They are broken men.

So, what is submission to you? I am getting a better idea what it is to me….but damn if it still isn’t so sexual.

I guess I just can’t get my hands out of my crotch.

Lady Nyo

Weird Prayers, Friends, Growth, Ego and John Ralston Saul.

As my friends know, and readers of this blog,…. I have been writing my fingers off….but also preparing for the ‘birth’ of “A Seasoning of Lust”, my first published book. It’s a slight volume of poetry and short stories (not so slight, my editor has divided it into two volumes)…one for before Xmas publication and one for (hopefully) publication on Valentine’s Day. Seems appropriate for issues of ‘lust’.

I didn’t realize that when you start a blog, and IF you get some regular readers, you have a responsibility to keep writing your thoughts and experiences and what you think are some answers. Or people write private emails with these issues attached, their opinions and either you spend a LOT of time writing back (and I try to) or you present things here on the blog face. My friends, Mary, Rose, Phil, Malkinius, Pat, John, Carol, and others have made this really easy for me lately because they have taken up much of the work. Their writings have allowed me to noodle around with unrelated tasks and my own writing, and I thank them for it.

I make no bones about my own private journey lately. I am seeking answers to some issues. One of these issues is the inner spirit, the search for the Light inside.

People who know me know I was a Quaker for 12 years. I put that aside around 2001, and tried to become more ‘outward’…more worldly. Becoming a belly dancer five years ago was part of this…and I can now say that this activity is more of me than I would have ever believed in the beginning. It forms much of my outward behavior, and it’s not been without struggle to see the changes it has made in me mentally.

But there are other issues that have become just as important as being a dancer. This issue of my submission, something I thought lost or obscured in the past few months, has come roaring back, but with new concepts and a different understanding.

Perhaps the questions have become clearer, or I am more open and less resistant to what it means, but there is something different now in its issue.

The best way to describe is this: it is what exists inside me…and it IS what I AM…a deeply submissive woman that only responds to a powerfully dominant man. It’s this dynamic. I fought it before for lots of reasons, but now I understand more of what I am…and I am a mixture of dominance and submissive tendencies, but they all settle into this person that is ‘ok’. I am not challenged by what others think of me, and I am not challenged by my own doubts that I am a ‘proper’ submissive woman.

I respond to power because I am…fundamentally, a powerful woman. That is very much part of my submissive nature. I need a power equally or more opposite me to respond in the deepest submissive response. I make no apologies for this, thinking that I am not docile enough, or meek enough. I am when I need to be, and that needing to be becomes part of the response. It is rather a startling thing when it happens, but it has happened rarely as of yet. I await with great pleasure knowing that I am accepting of my nature now and aware of its potential.

What I am is the sum total of my deepest and truest nature. I am, simply, a woman who is finding herself and that nature, and I am inspecting that nature like a jewel in my hand: it reflects the beauty of diversity and talents and uniqueness and I am pleased to meet myself finally.

I am ok. And the belly dancing helps me get in touch with that sexual side of my deep femininity, which is a good thing! I am finally able to understand the integration of the parts of me. All these things have a purpose, they weren’t things to dismiss. They might make others uncomfortable, but they don’t make me so anymore. I won’t fit into most boxes of others making.

This morning, I got a phone call from a friend in India….Aman. He is one of the most gentle and generous men I have met. He is a fantastic poet, though too modest by far, but he’s like a Sufi dancer/poet…always full of such spiritual thoughts he leaks prayer and giggles like a boy. Perhaps in India you learn to be so and in doing so you divest yourself of all pompous and self-serving ego that we in the West seem to need to plumb up our images.

Ego. I have been through the ringer with my own and with that of others lately. It has left some wounds.

Aman knows my struggles and has been sending, unbeknownst to me, Prayers of Healing. LOL! They must be working because my mentality has improved and I laugh a lot more.

And damn if I don’t DANCE better, too. I find that I am lifted up on my feet in ways that I didn’t know before. All this inward and outward stuff going on without my conscious knowledge!

I am healing, and the damn ego is not so fiercely defensive. Believe me or not, it’s not so much in charge. I was so defensive, and another man whose ego was even stronger than mine, brought out a lot of my own issues…
Ego against Ego…and there seemed to be little growth in me at that time. There was growth, I just didn’t see it’s projection.

It’s all in how you perceive and how you sum up your experiences.

I have figured when I fight myself and others instead of allowing them to float over me like water, that my ego is trying to make sure IT stays in charge.

Ego tries to make us feel separate from the rest of humanity. Ego tries to make us feel flawed, broken and alone instead of part of humanity.

This is where John Ralston Saul comes in for me because he somehow makes me feel in a philosophical sense, connected with the rest of humanity.

I started out reading Saul for answers to the world’s issues..like globalism, etc. But something along the way happened with Saul. The outward answers I was seeking started to turn inward. Our qualities of being human can not exist in isolation. We become unbalanced when we do, or try to do so.

What started out as an exploration into the world’s issues and answers to world crisis became part, a very fundamental part….of an exploration into my own participation in that world. But moreso, not just my ‘self’ vis a vis that world, but a struggle for personal balance.

So…there is growth and change here and I am full of energy again.

And am very grateful for any prayers, weird or healing that Aman and others are throwing my way. I will throw them around too, because I am stronger now and I can share.

Lady Nyo -teela -Jane…all three with a similar purpose in life.

“THE PUNISHMENT”

Late last year, I started a series of flashers (200 word stories) about shibari. I first heard this word from a Canadian writer, who also practiced this form of bondage. I had never heard of shibari until he explained this rather unique Japanese form.

Shibari literally means to ‘tie a package’ (actually some where I read it meant more: ‘to tie the heart’) in Japan…and the Japanese are known to delight in the looks of a gift as much as what the gift is.

So, from that first word, shibari, I created the Shibari Series. It will be published in “A Seasoning of Lust”…all 15 parts of it.

THE PUNISHMENT

While binding me for his pleasure, I uttered displeasing words. With a level glance he considered options and too soon decided my punishment.

Grabbing my hair, he pulled me to my feet and opening the shoji screen, forced me into an early spring snowy morn.

Ordering me to kneel, I obeyed, shivering in fear. Drawing an early cherry blossom from his sleeve (a gift that was to be mine), he threw it at my feet.

It was his pleasure for me to feel the sharpness of the morning until the soft snow covered the flower.

I, who a month ago would not have cared what I said, now trembled with remorse, feeling more than cold air. I knelt in the snow, my bound arms and nakedness revealing my shame. A crow in the cherry tree laughed scornfully.

When humility appears and the heart overflows, one submits and becomes a slave.

The snow soon covered the blossom at my knees.

He picked me up in his arms, carried me to the brazier, tucking me deep amongst his robes, singing softly of the foolish maiden who would die for the last word.

Jane Kohut-Bartels
Copyrighted, 2008

What is Service…Perfection…Submission… A very few thoughts…..

I have the ‘blue screen of death’ today, and it’s hurting my eyes…but I got into a discussion on another website about this issue of ‘service’.

Now, this is a concept I have come across for the last year in D/s.  I really had trouble getting my head around it.  I turned it every which way except the correct way.  I think I have a better handle on it now because I have redefined it in terms I know and understand.

We can make such a convolution about things. We can over define, or do other things to obscure some reality.  I think that service is one of those things that has been rather…obscure in the understanding.

For over a year, my friends and enemies have known that I have had an abiding interest in D/s.  I “mentored”  under a fellow for a while (a man in Montreal called Mackenzie Cross, but his real name was Jerry Golick–a man missing some serious wiring in the humanity department and one who turned out to be a BIG liar)  who tried to explain this service issue to me, but I just never really understood it.  Perhaps being the one ‘served’ he couldn’t get to basics ….or explain it in terms that I could really grasp. But I think overall the problem was I wasn’t recognizing something that I was already doing. I was making it obscure.

I left this “mentor” (who was just a scam artist…) recently and was befriended by a man from the Gorean Public Boards called Pantheus.  He clarified some thing for me, some essential things from a different perspective.

I was all atwitter with grief that I had ‘failed’ to really find my submission. I was crestfallen.  I felt a failure.  Pantheus asked why I was struggling so much with this issue?  He saw me as a very strong woman with lots of interesting parts to her, and these all went into what I was:  they were parts of what would be a very interesting and strong submissive woman.  Not a doormat, not a toady, but a woman who would eventually come to terms with her given strengths and be satisfied they were very much part of what was already a deeply submissive woman.  Even if I didn’t understand it or what it meant.

(what ‘deeply submissive’ means for another blog entry..it’s already a topic of discussion amongst many women)

For now, he and others encouraged me to remain free:  free of attachment to any Master or Dom…but free to explore and to understand my nature. Remain, in Gorean terms….a Free Woman.

I bit. It was a chance to discover me.  To explore  that ‘perfection’

I have always been chary of anyone telling me I could be perfect.  Or to “Be his perfection”.  What? Me? I could barely be average…or normal…how could I obtain this high pedestal of ‘perfection’?  When I heard this word, perfection, I immediately thought of preachers here in the south, who were always proclaiming perfection before God…that we are Perfect because we are Made Of God…and then we read that they are in jail because they have bilked their churches or molested some choir member.  So I got turned off to the idea of perfection. More later down this entry, but my neighbor with the booming voice is interrupting my thoughts here…

And about submission? Recently a woman I have come to love much, told me in no uncertain terms that submission was something that was, not something I did.

Wow..did that put a different spin on things.  I carried my submission inside already..and I knew this. I just didn’t know how the others parts (of dominance) fit…well, they were the yin/yang of it all…the complete package.

We are made up of many parts..and dominance is part of the mix…we aren’t purely submission. These parts are tested against each other, but it is only in the thinking that they are ‘questionable’ that caused the confusion.

So, submission to me is that mix of what you are inside…not what you do.  It is deep within your nature….It IS your nature, if you are a woman. (I won’t go into the male equation of this…I am not qualified by any means…I can only talk about my sex)

Perfection:  we are already, inside..made from the beginning…we work on those things we can…character flaws…things that make us obnoxious, etc. We can handle that…we can make those kinds of changes.

But the beauty (or the essence )  of our perfection is that  each of us is unique and original…no cookie cutters allowed.

Our perfection is our individuality. I’m no longer worried about this issue of perfection.  It’s usually defined by someone else’s defining, and it might not ‘fit’.  I’m just joyful to figure out finally that the parts all fit, and have since the beginning…before I knew any questions.  Now that doesn’t mean that I can’t work on the rough edges, but life has a way, like stones in a tumbler…of making those smoother.

and finally Service:  Service is what you do through love for the other. To ease their way in life, to make their lives more comfortable, bearable, and pleasant.  In the doing, you are giving service to the other.  It is big and small things, whether to pair socks or get up there on the roof with a nail gun.

We work in tandem in marriage.  We work in service like our grandparents did without giving labels.  We do what needs to be done because we are in service to the other through love.

At least this is the way I see these things now.  Hopefully, they will deepen.

UPDATE:  All these things changed…my understanding of these things.  Basically, I believe that weak men are most keen on these issues of service/submission/perfection.  They set a scale here, and you have to jump to their satisfaction.  Really now….where in Hell does a cyberpath or a sociopath, which seems to be the usual brand of these fellows…get to set the marks?  My husband, through his patience, gentleness and compassion has opened me up to more possibilities than any fake ‘dom’.  We are not stumbling around on terms, calling ourselves doms or submissives…because these labels are for those who are either oppressive or subject themselves as fools.  I hope I have grown enough to see the truth…at least  my sorry  experience with these jackasses has taught me something about self-worth….but only far, far away from them.  They are sorry pieces of humanity. 

I was far stronger than any of these men.  I just didn’t know it at the time.  I do now.  I hope other women will avoid the stupid traps and pitfalls of these above issues.  Love and connection is what counts in any relationship. 

Lady Nyo – Jane

avatara speaks, and good words too! I am moving this comment

to the face of the blog because I find her opinions add greatly to Rose’s points in the interview. I also find that both Rose and avatara, while two intelligent women who come from seemingly opposite sides of the spectrum, meet in the middle, so to speak and also have great commonality in argument. I agree with both of them, as different as they might be in practice. Both of them have been heavy hitters with me, and also very attentive to my own growth.

At a time when I was  confused about this issue of submission, and realizing that there was also dominance within my nature, I turned to both of them for further explanation. What their loving and attentive answers gave me was the beginning insight to my own nature and it was complex not a ‘simple’ issue. A woman did not just ‘fall to the feet of a man’, nor was I a woman who was looking for a man to take care of me, absolve me of my responsibilities, or punish me to ‘make’ me feel submissive.

I am a deeply submissive woman with  pieces of dominance in the mix. That doesn’t make me ‘not a true submissive’ as some would claim.

There are those who would try to strain that mixture into a bottle and cap it and label it, but I would still be a genii in a bottle and watch out if I ever got free of that cap. As both Rose and avatara have said here, we are much more complex creatures than that and this add beautifully to the end result.

That balance is there, and it is Imbalance when those parts, that make up the whole, are denied.  We are not totally one or the other, we are a delightful mixture.

Deal with it.

avatara: You all had to know I would chime in here (laughs)

Submission is something that is such a deep part of us, as deep as DNA and history, that It doesn’t have to be, nor should it be driven by external constructs….pressure from anyone, or anything.

Rather, it should be, as it was at one time, natural…We have lost sight of that…the nature part. In so many areas of life we have stepped aside from what is natural and accepted what (and my apologies to Rose here) our society and culture have tried to make us believe is the appropriate path. When I was growing up, the norm was that Mom was home taking care of the family while Dad was working to support the family. Perhaps the fact that my mother worked as well made me more aware of what I considered a “lack” at home. I don’t know. My father was a domineering man, harsh, angry in his reactions, and yet, his heart was soft and tender. He had been brought up in an environment where he had to be tough and unfeeling, unfair, in order to survive. He did support his family and mother was submissive to his decisions. The fact that she would never step in and speak to him when he was being domineering irritated me no end. It put me on a path that led me to be more dominant and controlling than I really wanted to be throughout my life. It also led me not to trust him.

As I have said to Jane often lately, nature abhors imbalance, it requires equality (shock), as Rose has pointed out. There is no totally submissive, nor is there totally dominant. There is a balance. The fact that nature intended for the male to be dominant, in his behavior, and to care for the submissive female and their offspring, doesn’t mean there isn’t room for balance between the two ends of the spectrum within an individual. Every human has a some of each within them. The key, and it is my passion to get this message out, is that a person figure out, for themselves, who and what they are and where the balance is for them. They have to understand themselves, accept who they are, and learn to love, and trust, who they are, before they ever look beyond themselves.

There should never be trust extended to someone else until one learns to trust themselves. I believe that “judgment” is a learned process, while tied to trusting oneself, which is developed over time, trial and error. The problem, as Rose mentioned is that we are social animals and there has to be trust within a group to function. The problem is, that there are no longer established social groups for us to grow into as we mature. At one time in this country, children grew up within a set community, with set standards and people that, over time, one knew they could trust. Now, that is seldom true unless one lives within a certain social status. We learn by trial and error how to recognize who to trust and who not to trust.

Another sad aspect is that we have been discouraged, on many levels, not to trust our innate intuition. Some people are afraid of that little voice that says “don’t go there, it isn’t safe, or that person isn’t a good person, or you are going to be in trouble”. So the one piece of equipment that might help us, is, in essence, disabled. So we go through life putting ourselves into situations, or with people, who end up hurting us. We stop trusting anyone and end up in a situation where we are somewhat cut off from people that we need in our lives.

As Rose said, Yin/Yang is everywhere in nature, within us, within the world we live in. Basically, in Chinese philosophy, it means the two fundamental principles, one negative, dark, passive, cold, wet, and feminine (yin) and the other (yang) positive, bright, active, dry, hot and masculine. The interactions and balance of these forces in people and nature influence their behavior. As I read that, I find it interesting that, as in so many things in nature, the masculine is the bright, active, positive influence. The male bird is the beautiful one, while the female is less bright. Perhaps it is because there are other, more fundamental, more important aspects to the female that should be focused on, rather than focusing on being “beautiful” by the world’s standards (sorry about the rabbit track) The reality is, there has to be balance in life, in an individual, and anyone who thinks they can judge capability by only one or two characteristics will be disappointed.

I agree with Rose, as well, that submission is not, or shouldn’t be, something you “feel”. I can’t tell you how many times I have heard, or read, someone saying “he holds me in my submission”, or “if I am not punished from time to time, I can’t feel my submission”. I AM a submissive woman, and how I “express” that submission has less to do with who I am with than it does with how I understand and accept myself. If I had to be at a man’s feet, or anywhere for that matter, in order to “feel” submitted or submissive, I would consider myself in need of deep introspection and maybe professional help. (smiles)

Where I differ with Rose is that, my submission is the same no matter where I am or who I am with. The “expression” of that submission will definitely differ, however, when I am faced with blatant ignorance, or some idiot on the interstate (smiles). Although I consider myself to be a Gorean woman because I studied the philosophies thereof, and slave, because I have given my complete submission to a Gorean man, I am still a very expressive, thinking, intelligent woman who doesn’t tolerate certain things. That doesn’t change my submission in any way, merely the expression of it. It doesn’t change the way I behave with my Master, nor the way I know I am to behave within certain groups. The difference is, I know how to express deference and respect, while still holding an opinion.

Someone once asked me what I would do if something were to happen to my Master and I wasn’t at his feet anymore, would I need to find another man to accept my submission? The answer to that is no, heartily no. It isn’t the man who makes me submissive, it is my inherent nature. Being able to express that nature to the extent I do today, requires a man, but I can express my nature just as well within other environments.

Where Rose is very right, and everyone should be aware of this, is that we don’t give up our rights, or responsibilities because we are submissive or at the feet of a man. Again, I don’t know how many times over the years I have seen women trolling through Gorean environments looking for a man to rescue them from whatever negative they perceive in their life. “I just can’t support myself, my boyfriend doesn’t love me, he doesn’t do what I want, he doesn’t this, or that, I don’t want to make decisions”. There is no more responsible person, no woman with more strength and determination than the truly submissive woman, whether she be slave Gorean, D/S, or not. We, as people, have to be the best, most honest, responsible, and realistic people in the world, Otherwise we won’t survive in a world that values unruly, bitchy women (smiles)

I might add to Rose’s point that you have the right to change your mind and leave…Not only do you have the right, you owe it to yourself, when you realize that you are in a relationship, or situation, that is hindering your growth, your understanding, or your fulfillment as a person, to move on. It may be the hardest choice you ever make, but one of my long time mantras has been “You can’t be good for someone else if you aren’t good for yourself”. I learned that the hard way and it is true. There should never be guilt for taking care of yourself, for searching for yourself, or for removing yourself from a bad situation. That should be one of the first things we are taught in life, that we, as human beings, are worthy and deserving of being ourselves, and we owe it to ourselves to learn who those selves are, and love them.

That is my passion…helping others to realize that they are vitally important people, who deserve to love and be loved, by themselves first. If that is in place, the rest of it will be so much easier…trusting others becomes easier if you know and trust yourself first.

Thank you Rose, for sharing so much of your life and thoughts here.

STATS: Someone who knows about these things…

told me to check them…I haven’t really done that, but there they were: 68 (now a few hours later….86) viewers within the hour of posting the last blog entry: “John Taurus and avatara”.

Also, “Lady Nyo’s blog” was in the Top Searches..(whatever that means)….what dog race this is I don’t know…but

I believe it means people are looking for answers on this D/s issue and so am I. I want to thank all those who have responded to the questionnaire…and there are more postings coming….and know that you do good service here. You have made these ratings with what you write and I am very proud to be part of the mix.

Lady Nyo

John Taurus is a local Dom and has responded

fast to the questions. I have known him for a while and know John to be a man of integrity. He has become a good friend and is always ready for discussion on these tricky issues of D/s and bdsm behaviors.

avatara is a Gorean woman with incredible insight into all these issues. She has been a great mentor to me as I try to understand these D/s issues. She also has become a firm friend and is generous with her knowledge, which is extensive. She is a deep thinker and I value her opinions on these issues.

L.N: What do you believe constitutes a “Good Dominant”? Or more so what characteristics do you think makes a good Dominant?

John Taurus: The same characteristics that constitute character are the same regardless of what community on chooses to be in. Knowing and respecting generally recognized protocols naturally are necessary for any community one chooses to be in, and bdsm is no different. So, to be “good”, on needs to spend the necessary time learning the protocols in order to be respectful of them.

LN: How do you develop trust with a new submissive? What are some of the issues with this? Is it a particularly “sticky” issue generally? Have you had other submissives where prior experience has led them to have ‘trust’ issues? How fundamental and deep can these go? Do you do anything ‘special’ to win the trust of someone who has had a bad experience?

JT: A dominant develops trust by being trustworthy; that is, staying within his integrity– doing what he will do, by when he says he will do it, and doing things that way he knows they’re supposed to be done. And if he errs, then he owns up to it and doesn’t step over it, but cleans up anything he needs to be responsible for.

LN: We hear a lot that respect is earned, not demanded. How do you think this is done? What has been helpful in your own practice?

JT: Personal integrity and honor lie at the heart of earning respect. It has to do with character.

LN: Many Doms say they cultivate submissives because they feel this is their nature to do so. But some do have the nature of predators as some of submissives have already reported in their interviews. What can a submissive watch out for to not fall into the clutches of a predator?

JT: A man who asserts that he’s a Dom, and who says he cultivates submissives because he feels this is in his nature should run as fast away from him as she can. Does it really take a 2″x4″ up side her head to get her attention?

LN: Where does negotiation begin? At what point within the relationship?

JT: Negotiation should begin when a Dom and a sub begin discussions on play together or on entering into a relationship, regardless of what nature and form the relationship takes or is anticipated to take.

LN: Where does friendship play into any of this? There are Doms who hold themselves aloof from any friendship. Do you see this as a problem?

JT: Anybody, dom or sub who holds themselves aloof from friendship probably has some underlying unresolved psychological issues and I would counsel caution with these particular individuals.

LN: Further, if the issue of sexual needs comes into play, as it seems it sometimes does, how can this relationship bypass exploitative means if no friendship from the Dom is offered? Is it a warning sign if a Dom expresses up front that there isn’t to be some kind of friendship or affection? Is affection a lead into other issues?

JT: Some people reason, and a good argument can be made for their position, that “casual sex” (regardless of how one frames it to fit a bdsm context) is honorable as long as a full disclosure preceeds that act itself. I have observed subs who will claim to be entering such a relationship of their own free will and accord, and who state that they understand and accept the terms; but more often than not it leads to emotional attachment and emotional pain. It’s enough to make a dom want to avoid casual sex, just so he can avoid all the emotional entanglement that comes from doing so. My personal opinion is that women who try to be emotionally like men (ie. empty and meaningless sexual activities for recreation) are going against their natural make-up, and the probability of emotional pain is increased and sometimes significantly.

LN: Is Mentoring the same as Domming? Is there a difference? Is sexual behavior allowed or should be allowed in a mentoring relationship? Discipline? Punishment? Rituals?

JT: A mentor should not be sexual with the person they are mentoring; doing so totally changes the nature of the relationship. A Mentor is a person who strives to help the person being mentored gain skill or knowledge in the community, and who holds themselves out as a friend who can be trusted. Punishment seems to me to be inappropriate; but discipline and rituals can certainly be part of the mentoring responsibilities.

LN: Are there distinct differences in mentoring and being a Dom? Some feel that a Dom calling themselves “Mentor” is another way to avoid the responsibilities of a Dom. They can take what they want from the relationship with the sub, and avoid the responsibility of domination. It then just becomes an issue of control no the part of the the so-proclaimed Mentor. Do you agree with this?

JT: Yes. I agree that there are dishonorable people around who are exploitative and predatory.

LN: What do you see are the responsibilities to a submissive from a Dominant? Should a submissive have a negotiated program from the beginning? How is a submissive developed without a particular program based on her strengths from the start? What is she to do with her time and how can she avoid the pitfalls of a Dom who is not really interested in her development, or doesn’t have the time for this in the real world?

JT: You ask a lot of questions! A Dom’s responsibilities are to stay within his integrity–do what he agrees to do within the boundaries of the negotiated arrangements. The questions you ask should be addressed by the negotiations, and these should be structured to fit the individuals involved. Sometimes the sub needs to teach her Dom a few things–I mean just because he is a Dom doesn’t mean he knows everything does it? Also, a Dom is not a mind reader, so a sub has the responsibility to communicate with her Dom. Does this sound similar to a vanilla relationship? They are more similar than dissimilar!

Thank you, John, for some very helpful answers.

avatara has some answers from her own experience that will be next.

Lady Nyo: What was it that made you feel you were a submissive or slave?

avatara: As phoenix expressed, I have always been a nurturing, caring, serving person, long before I ever heard of Gor, or M/s, or anything else. It is who I am at my core.

Lady Nyo: How long did you feel this way before you searched out some relief?

avatara: I don’t know that I ever felt a sense of pressure or lack of relief, because I didn’t know anything to gauge it against. I found ways to express my nature, such as remembering all the likes and dislikes of my partner, and making sure that they had those things most of the time. I expressed it in making sure there were always clean clothes and good meals cooked. I expressed it in making sure the environment of the home was, mostly, to his liking, etc. I did the same wherever I was, in family gatherings, etc., I has always helping with the work and serving in some way. If not actively doing something, I was there making others feel comfortable and contributing to their well being. The only time I actually fought the expression of my submission was toward the end of my marriage when I was so depressed I was barely able to function for myself. I never actually fought my nature itself.

Lady Nyo: Where you scared to even admit to this politically incorrect issue?

avatara: No, it never occurred to me to be other than I was, or to apologize for it. I’ve always been a rebel and never “fit in” with the rest of society, even in school, so it wasn’t scared, or even much bothered. It came as the most beautiful breath of fresh air to read a book that actually told me what I was, and justified me, to myself. I felt that I had always been a slave in terms of a deeply submissive woman, and to find out that there were actually people out there who knew what that was and wanted it? OMG, I can’t tell you how incredible that was. Again as phoenix stated, it was a natural as breathing, how could I deny it or be afraid of it?

Lady Nyo: Did you trust yourself or him easily?

avatara: I always was far too trusting of people, simply because I couldn’t believe bad about anyone. Throughout my life, if someone failed me, I assumed it was a lack on my part, not that they might be at fault <smiles> Submitting is so natural for me that I, like phoenix, don’t even realize it. Master will comment sometimes that my posture or expression was perhaps a little too submissive, when we meet other men. I have always trusted myself, for good or ill, but getting in touch with my deepest nature, forgiving myself for my past, and forgiving others, has taught me that I am truly worthy of my own trust.

Lady Nyo: Did you crave his control?

avatara: When you say control, do you mean physical control or emotional control? There is a vast difference. I have this internal control mechanism that is so strong, all it requires is a “look” from Master to make me realize I have overstepped. Usually it is something small, and the correction is immediate. I am harder on myself than he has ever been, but that is true of most healthy, deeply submissive women. I don’t require control to be myself, so I guess it comes down to the fact of being at his feet, or rather, being able to be with him.

Lady Nyo: Did you fight him:?

avatara: Well, unless you consider initial fear to be fighting, no <smiles> We first met online, and I “felt” his strength and character even there. What he made me feel, just by his presence was frightening to me. I hadn’t had much experience at that time, so tried to stay away from him. Finally I realized that there was a reason for the feelings so I approached him and we talked. We spent many months and several visits getting to know each other, and I learned that I could trust him implicitly. There was no reason to fight him after that because I know he won’t ever ask me to do, or be something harmful.

Lady Nyo: Did you ever care about the asymmetrical relationship?

avatara: No, not really. By the time we met, I had spent too many years in relationships that forced me to be dominant. I was grateful to be able to express my submission in ways that didn’t make me vulnerable…which sounds strange, but I knew he was trustworthy, thus I was free to completely submit to him. Knowing that I no longer had to be responsible to making decisions was wonderful, and freeing. Once I didn’t have to make them, I didn’t have any trouble doing so <smiles> at least the ones he wanted me to make. I never viewed life as “fair” or “unfair”, it was simply life. My Grandmothers probably didn’t think some things were fair either, but it was their “place” in life and they served with joy and love. How could I do otherwise.

Lady Nyo: Did you seek a particular philosophy? Like Gorean for example?

avatara: I consider myself to be Gorean because I read the books, studied what some of the best Gorean apologists alive had written, and literally thought my way through the series multiple times. What makes me who I am is not the man at whose feet I sit, but rather, what my nature dictates I am. Accepting my nature and living it, I believe, is the core message of the books. Because my Master is also a Gorean is complimentary, but we don’t make each other Gorean, we simply are already.

Lady Nyo: Did you have a hard time revealing your thoughts?

avatara:Yes. I had never considered my life, or myself, important enough to talk about, so when people asked me questions, I would usually re-direct the questions to them. I’m sure there are people out there today who wish I was still quiet <grin> Now, I realize I am a beautiful, vibrant, wise, submissive woman, and that I have knowledge that others might benefit from. I don’t go out selling it, but I make sure I am there for those who want to know.

Lady Nyo: Was he gentle with you in the beginning?

avatara: I wouldn’t say he was ever gentle, except perhaps in the areas where gentle are acceptable. He was self-assured and made sure I knew that his word was law. He never had to physically correct me, but just once, he told me I should perhaps reconsider my “place” with him. Just the hint that I would lose my condition as slave with him, devastated me like nothing else I have ever felt. It wasn’t even a matter of losing “him”, but my position with him. It amazed and astounded me, and maybe him, but I think he already knew what my reaction would be.

Lady Nyo: Did you want to submit to him fast? Or was it a long process?

avatara: The submission was there for him the minute he came online the first time. It isn’t something that one turns on or off, but it is always there. It calls out and draws people who recognize it. Having been introduced by a common friend I already knew he was a decent, trustworthy man, but we spent time getting to know each other before he accepted my submission to him.

Lady Nyo: Where do you think you are now in your path?

avatara: Sometimes I wonder what will happen to me if anything should happen to my Master, but I choose to celebrate the day, not worry about the future. Will I still be myself if I am not at his feet? Of course. He didn’t make me who and what I am. Will I feel the need to find another Master? I can’t say at this point. I know that I will be happier being able to serve a man, but it isn’t what makes me whole, it is just an expression of what is already there. So, for now, I am living and loving my life as a deeply submissive, submitted and committed woman at the feet of a man. Grateful for the opportunity, and for my friends.

Thank you, both, John Taurus and avatara for doing this interview. I know it helps to understand these issues by thinking deeply on your responses and also to read , as in avatara’s writing, her life and experiences. They make great promise and sense to me.

avatara’s weblog is found here:

http://gorphilosophylifestyle.yuku.com/directory